Do people fully support Palestine?

[Dawk]

I read this article and the scales fell from my eyes a bit: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/11/amid-the-ceasefire-wrangling-how-popular-is-hamas-in-gaza-now

I hadn’t realised that a majority of Gazans want a conservative Islamist state and the complete destruction of Israel to create an Islamic state covering the whole country (from the river to the sea I guess). They also support violence and even the sacrifice of their own lives.

I am appalled by the destruction and loss of life in Gaza, but having read this article I can’t understand why support for Palestine isn’t more caveated. Why are people waving flags and supporting Gaza so unconditionally? When you look at the polling described in the article it seems fairly clear that many/most don’t actually want peace unless it follows the complete destruction of Israel.

For me it’s a bit like supporting Iran. I would never wave the Iranian flag around because of what the country stands for. In this case I am horrified by the scale of destruction wrought by the IDF so support Palestine completely in that respect but I’d never wave the flag or chant the slogans.

If you consider yourself ‘pro-Palestine’, what do you think of the ideology described in the article?

It's really horrifying to see people defend a genocide.

Yes, of course, some of it depends on my personal experience. The part is knowing that terrorism doesn't happen out of the blue. If you consistently oppress a group of people, if they don't have an option of forming an organized army then you end up with terrorism in your hands. My personal experience effects me in a way to understand this dynamic.

We are not normalizing terrorism. We are only stating the fact that actions cause reactions. Isn't terror part of Israel's daily life? My understanding the causes of terror groups' existence or denying the root causes wouldn't change anything. I/we am/are the messenger(s) here and you're shooting the messenger(s) because you don't like the message reminding you of the fact.

@OchaLove how did the Palestinians attack Isreal and take hostages if they were experiencing a genocide? (I'm not talking about Hamas, but the Palestinians who were filmed doing it.)
If they were in the process of being wiped out by Isreal, how ever did they perform such an attack?

How do you know they are not Hamas?

Also, I'm referring to post October 7th when I say genocide.

”My personal experience effects me in a way to understand this dynamic.”
Do you have personal experience of oppression and terrorism?
Do you agree that terrorists oppress and terrorise their own communities?

@OchaLove the Palestinians in the attack weren't dressed in the Hammas gear, they went along to join in. What a fun day for them? (Videos show their enjoyment!)
So you say the genocide happened after they attacked Isreal - you wouldn't say it was defensive action instead then?
Also, why if there is a genocide are the Palestinians out in numbers partying giving sweets out while they celebrate the skeletal hostage shows? (Does it add up?)

"Do you have personal experience of oppression and terrorism?"

Somewhat. When PKK terror spread to big cities in Turkey with bombings of polluted areas.

"Do you agree that terrorists oppress and terrorise their own communities?"

Yes, of course, I agree. I know that PKK was kidnapping youth from Kurdish families who wouldn't otherwise support them. But these families were forced to support PKK both financially and otherwise (such as voting for pro-PKK politicians) otherwise the terror organization might have killed their kidnapped children. These children would grow up in the mountains, and turn into PKK terrorists, very much like a Stockholm syndrome case.

I never considered these Kurdish families who were forced to support PKK as enemies. How could I? That would be victim blaming. I always opposed the government's oppression in these areas. This is no different than what I'm saying in the case of Israel and Hamas. That doesn't mean I support Hamas, I don't. I never supported PKK either.

You seem to have a lot to catch up with.

Mumsnet search is difficult to use but all this was discussed around the time of the crime (July).

There is too much going on right now I think for people to look up and refeed links to you now but I’ll try to find some quickly.

The rape of the Palestinian man by the Sde Temain soldiers was certainly defended by a lot of people, though others were naturally very shocked.

Haaretz excerpt, today, without links:

Following the investigation's launch last July, IDF military police detained nine soldiers, sparking protests at the base. Among the demonstrators were far-right Israeli lawmakers Nissim Vaturi, Tzvi Succot, and former minister Amichai Eliyahu. Last month, reports indicated that police sought approval to investigate the three politicians before questioning additional civilian suspects who allegedly broke into the base.

In October, Haaretz reported that Force 100 soldiers – responsible for guarding Palestinian detainees at Sde Teiman – attacked military police investigators, forcibly taking suspects from them at gunpoint and barricading themselves inside a base structure. Despite having evidence, military police delayed an investigation until January, reportedly fearing backlash from right-wing activists.

and,

Far-right lawmaker Itamar Ben-Gvir dismissed the charges, saying, "Instead of supporting IDF soldiers who risk their lives to protect us, the military prosecution is filing an indictment – without even including the central accusation initially leveled against them."

Haaretz headline July 29
Storming Sde Teiman, Far-right Lawmakers Try to Inject Chaos Into the Israeli Army
Israel's far-right has been seeking to impose its values on the IDF since the onset of the Gaza war. Monday's detainment of Israeli reserve soldiers who are accused of abusing a Palestinian prisoner at the Sde Teiman detention center may have provided them with the opportunity they were waiting for
………
A video was leaked of the abuse by a whistleblower. Smotrich saw the whistleblower as the criminal, not the abusers.

Middle Eastern Eye

Israel's far-right Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich has called for an investigation to find out who took the video that shows Israeli soldiers raping a Palestinian in the Sde Teiman detention centre.

In a post on X, he demanded "an immediate criminal investigation to locate the leakers of the trending video that was intended to harm the reservists and that caused tremendous damage to Israel in the world and to exhaust the full severity of the law against them"
https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/smotrich-demands-finding-person-who-filmed-sde-teiman-rape-video
………..

CBS News

A member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, speaking Monday at a meeting of lawmakers, justified the rape and abuse of Palestinian prisoners, shouting angrily at colleagues questioning the alleged behavior that anything was legitimate to do to "terrorists" in custody.

Lawmaker Hanoch Milwidsky was asked as he defended the alleged abuse whether it was legitimate, "to insert a stick into a person's rectum?"

"Yes!" he shouted in reply to his fellow parliamentarian. "If he is a Nukhba [Hamas militant], everything is legitimate to do! Everything!"

Israel's far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir, who's drawn U.S. reprimands with his provocative actions since the war started, wrote in a post on social media: "Take your hands off the reservists."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-idf-palestinian-prisoner-alleged-rape-sde-teinman-abuse-protest/

…………
Al Jazeera News
Israeli pressure group Guarding the Soldiers – a new organisation formed in defence of the soldiers accused of rape – was quoted in Israeli media as saying: “The hearing in the high court this morning is absurd and a gift to [Hamas leader Yahya] Sinwar and murderers.”

Israeli politicians, including cabinet members, have also defended the accused. Ben-Gvir, who is responsible for the prison service, told Israeli media on the day of the reservists’ arrest that it was “shameful” for Israel to arrest “our best heroes”. The same day, Smotrich, who had been among the right-wing mob to storm the prison, published a video message, saying that “IDF soldiers deserve respect” and must not be treated as “criminals”.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/9/everything-is-legitimate-israeli-leaders-defend-soldiers-accused-of-rape
……….

The Times of Israel 22 August

The arrests prompted riots by far-right protesters who broke into both Sde Teiman and the Beit Lid base in the West Bank.

According to the IDF, the soldiers are suspected of aggravated sodomy (a charge equivalent to rape), causing bodily harm under aggravated circumstances, abuse under aggravated circumstances and conduct unbecoming of a soldier.

@ochalove do you notice the Palestinians celebrating over the coffins of a baby and child today?

@Enough4me it was horrible wasn't it? Playing music. Someone had organised a set of shiny chairs for people to stand on, to see the spectacle. And the hideous blood libel and invoking the nazis on the banner. Grotesque. And lets remember that Oded Lifschitz was an elderly peace activist.

Yes, it is absolutely horrendous. No one can be in any date of the hatred felt for those four innocent people just for being jews.
That hatred will not magically go away and now Iran has two Brits to exchange for money to push the terrorists way to attack again.

Ok - fair enough.
I don’t blame ordinary Palestinians for Hamas as I know they are also victims of Hamas.
What do you think should be done about Hamas - given that they have said they will continue to commit atrocities like October 7th?

Some incredibly powerful imagery on that poster behind the coffins. I cannot find the words to describe. The absolute evil of Hamas.
The similarity of the words written by Hamas and some of the posts on here recently. I'm really struggling to comprehend how we got here.

The horrific imagery behind the coffins reflects the perspective one religious group has of another. In the West we cannot see the hate that is taught to children and ingrained throughout education/families/religious gatherings. We see and hear words like martyrs and it isn't a word we have been raised to understand.

I think that banner tells us a lot. Deeply ingrained antisemitism. It was a gut punch to see it. I do hope people reflect on they tradition they invoke but it really is very deeply entrenched.

@SharonEllis
“Let’s remember that Oded Lifschitz was an elderly peace activist.”
Yes - Hamas targeted the people who would be most likely to feel sympathy for Palestinians. The festival goers and kibbutz dwellers were peaceful people. Hamas twisted ideology just sees them as Jewish and murders them regardless of their views and actions.
Hamas is a product of Islamist extremism and some version of it exists in many other Middle East countries without Israeli oppression . It is funded by Iran whose motives are not to help the Palestinians but to further their power and ideology in the region.

Oh gosh the images today on TV are beyond is horrific....grotesque and people cheering!! ...very difficult scenes to see this, this is not civilised people to make a performance like this.

This is evil pure and simple.

Why hand over the coffins in a public spectacle like this...

Yes - barbarism.

Perhaps certain people here on MN, will wake the fuck up now and be as ashamed as they should be.

I agree.

Seeing October 7th live streamed as a fun day out for both Hamas and Palestinian civilians, then hostage release and today cheering at coffins of 2 dead children, their mother and an elderly peace promoting gentleman sickens the stomach. The ones cheering like a festival is occurring are like animals. The useful idiots in the west have to spin a lot to cover this level of barbarity to make them feel good.

The marches in cities in the UK yuck, vile. No condemnation of Hamas terrorists just singing and clapping along like puppets to Houthis 'make me proud, turn another ship around', shouting 'intifada revolution', some wearing green for hamas, I'd wish the lot would sod off to gaza and see what hamas are really like or the Yeman and see what the Houthis are really like, or various other terrorist holdings.

To the marchers. Rape is not resistance. Kidnapping a woman and her 2 babies is not resistance. Parading Shani Louks broken dead body is not resistance. Grabbing elderly peace keepers who work to help gazans and killing them or Kidnapping them is not resistance. It's vile, barbaric cowardly behaviour.

It's so obvious how hamas don't care about Gaza or its people. How can the world not see it. The demos should be against hamas and getting their claws out of the innocent kids brought up by them to hate Jewish people any one who isn't their kind of Muslim.

Yep the marches in the cities here in the UK should have been stopped a long, long time ago...this is what they are supporting the barbarians !! it is utterly mind blowing how dim some people are