Do people fully support Palestine?

[Dawk]

I read this article and the scales fell from my eyes a bit: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/11/amid-the-ceasefire-wrangling-how-popular-is-hamas-in-gaza-now

I hadn’t realised that a majority of Gazans want a conservative Islamist state and the complete destruction of Israel to create an Islamic state covering the whole country (from the river to the sea I guess). They also support violence and even the sacrifice of their own lives.

I am appalled by the destruction and loss of life in Gaza, but having read this article I can’t understand why support for Palestine isn’t more caveated. Why are people waving flags and supporting Gaza so unconditionally? When you look at the polling described in the article it seems fairly clear that many/most don’t actually want peace unless it follows the complete destruction of Israel.

For me it’s a bit like supporting Iran. I would never wave the Iranian flag around because of what the country stands for. In this case I am horrified by the scale of destruction wrought by the IDF so support Palestine completely in that respect but I’d never wave the flag or chant the slogans.

If you consider yourself ‘pro-Palestine’, what do you think of the ideology described in the article?

I think what people often overlook is that “supporting Palestine” is not anti Israeli

Given Palestine want to wipe out Israel I don’t see how supporting Palestine isn’t anti Israel

@dairydebris I think you are imagining “a bomb blast” as a single moment of instant death which is very far from the reality for many. Starving to death is not pain free or quick, surgery including amputations performed on children without anaesthetic is not pain free or quick, families without mothers, fathers or missing multiple children, homelessness and hopelessness. It takes nothing away from condemning one atrocity by condemning another.

That’s only if you stop seeing them as individual human beings.

Have you been part of a community where terrorism has been normalised @Peacecanbe , as @ochalove has been?

Because I'm fairly confident that I'm not the one who is unusual here in terms of my reaction to acts of torture.

I'm not. I'm aware there are many ways of dying. I just find the idea of being the target of that specific hatred and ultra violence that Hamas handed out completely hideous.
That there's still people on here drawing equivalence between the IDF and Hamas blows my mind. Everyday. It's like a collective madness has taken hold.

I find it hard to understand how people can dismiss the death and mutilation of thousands of civilians and so many of them children because they see it as “less bad” than another horrific act. I hope everyone does all they can to find peace.

Where has anyone dismissed the death of 1000's of civilians? I've spent way too much time here over the last few weeks. Never seen it. Can you show me where?

You know what, don't even bother. No one here dismisses it, we just disagree on who is responsible for these deaths. Because for some unknown reason people prefer to see terrorists as not responsible for the death and destruction they've bought to their own people and families.

I find the IDF 'less bad' as you put it than Hamas. You feel otherwise, fine. I know for sure who's mercy I'd rather find myself at.

I was feeling much the same @dairydebris. It’s clear that there is a huge difference in how these events are viewed and a different understanding of responsibility and accountability, what is cause and effect and who has agency and how much. It truly is a ghastly situation.

“That there's still people on here drawing equivalence between the IDF and Hamas blows my mind. Everyday. It's like a collective madness has taken hold”
It’s astonishing and terrifying that people can’t see the difference between an army made up of the usual bell curve range of civilians ( good/ bad/ average) and a terrorist group like Hamas that is ok with torturing and murdering it’s own people never mind anyone else.

It’s also a failure of imagination to think that that being captured ( with your entire family) and subjected to torture and the certain knowledge of death is equivalent to being bombed.

From Amnesty International
“The Hamas leadership repeatedly calls for rights and justice for Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere. But they do not always act in a manner that reflects respect for rights, justice and the rule of law. By failing to halt such grave violations, the Hamas authorities are dragging the name of justice through the mud and condoning these appalling crimes,” said Philip Luther.

www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/

I completely agree with everyone else. Hamas and the Israeli authorities are on a level in my mind too.

They have both caused great harm and suffering to ordinary civilians and they are both preventing lasting peace. It’s not about bad people or good people, it’s the basic ideology at the heart of both sides is completely wrong.

I find it mind blowing that someone say you would rather die in a bomb than die from torture as an explanation. Not to mention that the Israeli authorities are accused of torture too. It’s not just about how people die. It’s the enormity of everyone losing a family member, the injuries that people will live with not to mention that almost everyone has lost their home and the basics of life have been destroyed.

It’s probably not very helpful to go down the road of what sort of death is more terrible. We can only really talk about things that strike the greatest horror into us personally. For me the horror of being a mother trying to protect my two young babies while being kept hostage is beyond my comprehension.
The suffering of Palestinian orphans who have been injured and alone is also beyond my comprehension.
I primarily blame Hamas for both those things .

@OpheliaWasntMad that’s the Israeli narrative for sure. Shrug of the shoulders and blame Hamas. What could they do , human shields and so on and so forth. That’s seems to be the narrative in most Israeli media and that certainly is the narrative of the government.

it’s not the international narrative at all. Most seem to accept that Israel basically went too far.

Even if one side does not fulfil its obligations under international law the other side still have those obligations. Either we see that international law is important and we should strive to stick by it or we don’t. And you and other posters don’t I assume.

I believe that one day it will be clear that Israel’s main goal was to destroy Gaza and make it unliveable. That this was the goal from the start of this round of conflict and that they have lied to both the Israel public and the international community.

“I believe that one day it will be clear that Israel’s main goal was to destroy Gaza and make it unliveable.”
Where does Hamas’ actions on October 7th and Hamas’ stated intention to repeat October 7th fit into your narrative about Israel?

@Fifiworks
”Shrug of the shoulders and blame Hamas. What could they do , human shields and so on and so forth. That’s seems to be the narrative in most Israeli media and that certainly is the narrative of the government.it’s not the international narrative at all. Most seem to accept that Israel basically went too far.”

I agree that the scale and intensity of Israeli response was excessive.
I’m not sure what the answer is but I don’t think blaming Israel for everything is the answer.
It was very alarming to see the triumphalism and aggressiveness of Hamas militants during the recent release of hostages. It showed us a different side to the poor displaced Palestinian civilians we normally see .
It was a chilling reminder that they are still unchanged and very dangerous. And yes - they do use Palestinians as human shields. It is clear that do not care about their ordinary citizens.

yes I completely agree. Not saying Hamas are the good guys. There are no good guys with any power here.

the Hamas militants did not show another side to the Palestinian civilians because I don’t conflate a whole culture/state/identity with terrorism in the first place. It doesn’t justify what has happened.

These posts ascribing the IDF to be the same as Hamas??🤯😱 You know there is conscription in Israel? So young adults doing their duty to their country...you think they are like the terrorist monsters of Hamas? I'm sure the IDF have bad eggs, like any army but they are nowhere and nothing like Hamas...I have much loved people to me being called up and served in the IDF in the past 2 years and they all speak of trying to minimise civilian casualties. The death rate of civilians is because of Hamas... Who I actually think want civilian casualties to be maximised. They are truly evil and anyone who wants to support peace and civilians should support Israel in getting rid of them.

IDF soldiers and reservists doing awful things is rightfully regarded as abhorrent and the IDF has systems in place to hold them accountable, including public outcry when these abuses are uncovered.

Hamas, on the other hand, sent their operatives into Israel on October 7th with explicit orders to rape, murder, burn, and kidnap, and livestreamed it. And they were, and still are, celebrated for it.

There is no comparison between the two.

What public outcry? There were members of government out there protesting against the detainment of IDF soldiers who had raped Palestinians.

@fifiworks I agree with you.

Eh?! Because Israel doesn’t have oil money and so its people rely on their own intellect and ingenuity to create wealth. I would have thought that was pretty obvious.

Public outcry? There's been public and government support. The sexual abuse of detained men was described as "rape in the name of God" and is now used as a threat because people know there are no significant consequences. People actively tried to prevent any action being taken against individuals involved, including a clearly not-impartial intervention from an associate of a rather senior government figure and statements from government ministers. The sentences people have received are extremely short give the gravity of the offences, and are open to further softening.

For all the claims of morality, there's a wealth of statistics and lived experience demonstrating the opposite. This is not an organisation to which Palestinian lives matter at all, nor to which the lives of anyone daring to provide aid or a voice to Palestinians matter.

You have any proof for this outlandish claim???

A few bits and pieces, yes. Just a few for people to look up if interested...

The widely documented debate in the Knesset.

Ben Gvir's statements and his party's participation in protests at the centre seeking to prevent the arrests of individuals suspected of abusing prisoners. (He was a minister at the time and was not sacked or moved from a post in which he had power over Palestinians).

The medical 'report' claiming injuries were self-inflicted, authored by someone closely connected with Netanyahu.

Footage and reports from B'Tselem and other human rights organisations.

The accounts of IDF whistleblowers, both current and historical, of events and attitudes within the service. Additionally, the accounts of consequences for whistleblowers.

Recent publications (some of which have been shared on these boards) in which soldiers, speaking anonymously, described their actions and the actions of others in the field.

You're making the claims; can you provide links or not?

It's not up to me to prove your claims by googling!

What does even 'enemy civilians' mean? Civilian is a civilian, you can not minimize the huge number of civilian deaths by portraying them as perceived enemy.

Gaza is inhabitable, most structures are destroyed, hospitals, schools, residential complexes. Doctors were taken from hospitals, tortured to death. International doctors who volunteered in the area reported kids, little kids were deliberately shot to death. You still claim IDF were careful and we can not compare them to Hamas' cruelty?