Amsterdam

[EricInk]

I can't believe how unbalanced the media reporting is of the events last night

The maccabi fans were behaving atrociously and inciting conflict the entire day, pulling down flags, chanting 'fuck Palestine' and intimidating Dutch Arabs

Spain officially supports a Palestinian state and, I believe, has called what Israel is doing to Palestinians a genocide.

Because of that, Spain's dead, and white, Christian Dutch people who died there (so not Dutch Muslims, which might make a difference to some people) shouldn't be respected.

There were celebrations in Israel when the floods hit by the way. It was seen as some kind of divine retribution. This stadium incident wasn't a one off. What was new was that alongside disrespecting the suffering of Spaniards, they were also disrespecting the dead of their host country (The Netherlands).

@9isfine

My last post has formatted weirdly unfortunately.

I think you've mixed up last night with October 7th.
My point is that last night was football hooligans looking for a fight on both sides.

Israeli football hooligans absolutely wound up their opponents.
There was mon violence . People got hurt on both sides.
Some people were antisemitic, some people were Islamophobic.
It was in no way comparable to October 7th. You're the only person who is conflating the two.

@Usernamesareboring1 Thank you for explaining, and @gestroopd It is so sad for Spain, I don't believe the people who died or lost loved ones deserved this at all.

Jew≠ Israeli

Nobody claims this except you and people who want to pretend their hatred of Israel has nothing to do with Jews and that your hatred has no impact on Jews. You and your ilk have invented this feeble fiction a self-justifying rationalisation.

You don't have to think Jews = Israel to acknowledge the very evident truth that Israel has always been very intimately associate with Judaism and is the inly Jewish state in the world.

That's an inconvenient fact for people who want to hate Israel and still think of themselves as anti-racists, but there you go, its a fact anyway.

You are also perhaps unaware of the surrounding Arab states which have kicked Jews out.

Tell me, which of the other modern countries created as a result of colonisation are you campaigning against?

Your meaning was unambiguous and unmistakeable. Here is what you said. Its nothing to do with weird formatting. You said what you meant.

Saying "find the Jews" is antisemitism. However, if you're relying on translation you'll never know whether the words Jews and Israelis have been substituted.
I'm not excusing that behaviour- just pointing out that language is complex

'Find the Jew's was you replying to me stating that this is what Hamas said on October 7th.

You used the minimising phrase ' i'm not excusing that behaviour' about a racist massacre.

Pro Palestinian? I thought they were marching for a ceasefire, release of the hostages and an end to conflict with Israel.

That is the proPalestinian view.

@9isfine since you ask and you are so very angry about it I did campaign against Apartheid in South Africa which is generally seen to have been a bad thing. Most people think Nelson Mandela was a great leader and are happy to excuse the fact that he was seen as a terrorist for a long time. Freedom Fighter seems to be the term.
I'm happy that Ireland has the GF agreement and that generally NI seems to not be an absolute battleground infested by double agents and that they manage to coexist. Rhodesia / Zimbabwe has been a bit of a mess -I'm still glad they are no longer dominated by people from Europe.

Glad to hear that clarified, not sure everyone got the brief. Still, always a few bad apples.

since you ask and you are so very angry about it I did campaign against Apartheid in South Africa which is generally seen to have been a bad thing. Most people think Nelson Mandela was a great leader and are happy to excuse the fact that he was seen as a terrorist for a long time. Freedom Fighter seems to be the term

This is an absolutely bollocks reply. Apartheid was a racist law. It was not a country. Incredible that I have to point out this distinction. I asked you what other modern countries you campaign against and you reply with your views on a racist law?! Absolutely nonsensical response.

Similarly your reference to Ireland. Unless you campaign against the existence of Northern Ireland, this reply is also nonsensical.

@9isfine you're absolutely obsessed with October 7th.
It's as if nothing at all has ever happened to anyone else in the region, like the absolute pulverisation of Gaza, siege warfare and now completely illegal invasion of Lebanon, bombing of a good few other countries, getting a huge number of IDF troops killed and injured needlessly, ignoring the remaining hostages and ramping up a major war with Iran so that Bibi can get out of trouble at home.
I think the price has been paid.
I can't think of another way to say this but I'm sure you'll now accuse me of b l.

Except, I presume, for the thousands of Jews that participate in the pro Palestinian marches?

Thousands? Where do you get your figures from?

@9isfine are you a bot? Or very young? You don't know much history.

You really can't understand that Israel = Jews? It is the Jewish homeland. I am British born and Jewish. Spiritually Israel is my home and the ever increasing Jew hatred here makes me fear for my children and grandchildren. What happened in Amsterdam last night is not an isolated incident and Jews, wherever they currently live, will watch future events with concern. We'd be blind not to.

@LetThereBeLove I'm sorry you feel that it's not safe to live here. That's not been my experience.
There are a lot of Jews who don't have any interest in modern day Israel, for very good reasons. It's a tiny, tiny area that has no business in giving out passports and settlement rights to the entire Jewish diaspora. It can never stop expansion and continual war for this reason. So while being "Israeli " may be a lovely concept it ties citizens into a colonial, militaristic society. Jewish≠ Israeli. We must defend everyone's right to live at peace in the country they were born in and fight for human rights and dignity for those who are oppressed.

I do agree with this.

you're absolutely obsessed with October 7th

And there we have it. Proving the point I made which started this entire debate. Which was that no matter what happens to Jews, people with anti-Semitic beliefs have to find a way to turn their faces against it. Can't bring themselves to condemn it as they have so dehumanised Jews that no matter what happens to them, no matter how brutal, they can turn their faces from it.

And now, levelling up the revolting attitude, not only do you not care but you accuse others who do , of being ' obsessed'. Absolutely despicable.

The reason I am so disturbed by October 7th is because of what I saw its aftermath. And what I saw was the response of people like you. Which was, at the very best, to immediately turn their faces away from the Jewish victims and towards another group. Or to minimise what happened ( such as in your own appalling comment) Or to deny it happened. Or to say the Israeli Jews deserved it. Or to tear down the hostage posters.

For the first time in my life I actually experienced how horrors like the holocaust happens. It when people who consider themselves good people, its when ordinary people have so dehumanised another group, that no matter what brutality befalls that group, they turn away from it.

So yes, I am, unashamedly, marked for the rest of my life by being forced to confront that.

I don't see other people not giving a shit about what is happening to people in Palestine, Jordan or Lebanon. I do see people not giving a shit, or being delighted, about what is happening to Israelis. I do see people ignoring the fact Hamas broke the ceasefire, open glories in the death it brought on its own citizens, refuses to let its citizens shelter in the massive tunnels ( that is spent money on that could have been used to build up Gaza), refuses to end its attacks, release the hostages and surrender to save its citizens, and ignoring the fact that Gaza has thrown over 15000 rockets into Israel since october 7th and 12000 from Lebanon. I don't see any other explanation as to why people arent' furious with Hamas for starting this war and terrible death and destruction and not even trying to protect its own citizens that it deliberately brought all this down upon, but only blame Israel, I cannot see any other explanation of this than clear anti-semitism.

@9isfine
I couldn't even finish reading your post if I'm honest, you're making so little sense. October 7th was recognised as a brutal terror attack and rightly so by almost every country and Israel has received the backing of some of the most powerful countries in pursuing revenge for Oct 7th even to the point of politicians giving clear support for the IDF to carry out acts which amount to war crimes. Part of what has allowed this is ongoing genocide against the Palestinian civilians is the perpetual dehumanisation and normalisation of Islamophobia and Anti-arab sentiment, something which posters on this thread have continually dismissed and "turned away from".

That's a big old brief you've got there, no wonder you're focussing on one 'tiny ,tiny area.'

Best not to widen your world view to anywhere else, it might make you doubt yourself.

OTOH quite a lot of countries cite outside influence as the cause of their troubles and don't want intervention, just smacks of colonialism and saviourism.

@9isfine people including myself had every sympathy for the hostages and the events of that day. Despite your emotive language.
Unfortunately Israel then was revealed to be

guilty of dropping Hellfire missiles on its own people
bombing hospitals
corralling civilians into tents and safe areas them bombing them
killing journalists and other protected groups
using dogs to kill disabled non combatants
outraged that rape of male prisoners is banned
hunting people and children with drones

And lots more.
If we can't say this is wrong, we permit it.
Next time, when there's a war and any of us are unfortunate enough to be on the wrong side, these war crimes will be used against us.
Or perhaps we will feel free to use them against others.
It seems like the whole world order is being allowed to rot because we're terrified of being called antisemites.
October 7th was wrong.
Israel's forever war is wrong.

You just don't get it at all. Israel is not colonialist. It may well be militaristic as you put it but after 7 October they have had to be. No other country would have put up with the constant and ongoing bombardment of rockets and missiles from Gaza and. Lebanon via Hamas and Hizbollah Thanks to a defence system Israel has managed to protect her citizens while Hamas' and Hezbollah used all their funding to build tunnels and arms giving no fucks about the civilian populations of either Gaza or Lebanon.

IF that's your argument you presumably think it was Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment which caused Hamas to bring down all this bloodshed on their own people?

And I am not talking about the response from countries, I am talking about the response from citizens, like you. And your comments ('I'm not condoning', and 'you're obsessed' and 'Israel is nothing to do with Jews so I am not racist, honest!') have made your deeply embedded anti-Semitism very clear.

@LetThereBeLove Israel is colonial. It was literally founded with the intent to colonise Palestine.
There are many posters from the 1920s at this link www.palestineposterproject.org/poster/palestine-land-of-jewish-immigration

@ismu 'people including myself had every sympathy for the hostages and the events of that day'
yeah, I really felt your deep pain on behalf of the Israelis tortured and slaughtered when you said that you 'did not excuse' what Hamas did to them. Such strong language revealing the deep emotion you felt. I was truly touched by it.

Its totally equivalent to the language you use to describe what is happening to people in the countries Israel is at war with, and the way you feel about that, thanks to the war Hamas started.

But it is, it is colonial and it does operate with apartheid laws. That's a fact.