Amsterdam

[EricInk]

I can't believe how unbalanced the media reporting is of the events last night

The maccabi fans were behaving atrociously and inciting conflict the entire day, pulling down flags, chanting 'fuck Palestine' and intimidating Dutch Arabs

@quantumbutterfly the posts on Wikipedia refer to events in the 1980s and 1990s to demonstrate the violent history of Ajax ultras. It's not in reference to last night.
If there's a mistake on Wikipedia feel free to go and edit it!! They still did use nail bombs and have running battles, I'm pretty I remember that!

That is not my argument at all. But you do you.

@LetThereBeLove what is your argument? If Israeli ultras beat up taxi drivers can we say that or is it Antisemitism?

That link does appear from 2023 so apologies for posting it.

Can’t edit the post to remove it unfortunately.

Plenty of other videos from last night to demonstrate the violence.

This 100%.

See its happening again isn't it? After October 7th we had all the anti-Semites desperately trying to divert attention from the racist massacre and its victims, and instead of blaming the attackers, focussing on blaming the Jewish victims, and its happening again with this attack in Amsterdam. Not a word of condemnation from these people about attacks on Jews. Instead we get anything, anything, anything to divert attention from a racist attack on Jews and place attention elsewhere.

And the Israeli football supporters were looking for "Arabs" while chanting and singing about finishing them. I still don't see how other people being racist justifies sowing division between Pro-Palestinian protestors who are protesting against the actions of the British and Israeli governments and British Jews, particularly when those groups aren't exclusive. Particularly when the protests have been largely peaceful and have Jewish blocks. It's suggesting that protesting against the genocide in Palestine is similar to damaging people's property, attacking cab drivers with chains and singing genocidal songs which is obviously absurd.

Interesting the only poster on this thread perpetuating the concept of good and bad Jews is someone defending the actions of these racist football fans as not that big of a deal.

@9isfine this is an argument that's used a lot

Because anti-Semites like the attackers in Amsterdam hate people for being Jewish. In the footage of Hamas on October 7th they as saying ' find the Jews' , not 'find the Israelis.'

And yes, I think a lot of pro-Palestinian protestors are anti-Semitic. I think some of them hate all Jews and some of them of racist ideas of 'good' and 'bad' Jews. That comes through clearly on many posts on MN, for example.

Saying "find the Jews" is antisemitism. However, if you're relying on translation you'll never know whether the words Jews and Israelis have been substituted.

I'm not excusing that behaviour- just pointing out that language is complex.

The main problem is that Israel insists that no one is allowed to object to its actions no matter how illegal or heinous, without crying "antisemitism". Israel has created the myth of all Jews as Israelis and as a homogeneous group who believe in an ethnoreligious state. All Jews do not support Israel and they are an extremely diverse community. It's hardly surprising that people conflate Jews with Israelis since it's a concept that's been actively promoted.
Israel has weaponised a sense of victimhood to the point where no one can freely criticise the actions of any Israeli or Jewish person, which is why we are in the position of being unable to call out criminal hooliganism on this thread.

They did not kill 19 in the 80's, unless you say wiki is wrong, that was hyperbole. Were nail bombs used last night? If not then we deal with the actions and reasons of now, not 40 years ago.

@quantumbutterfly I've no reason to think Wikipedia is wrong. I'm just using it as an example.
Football hooliganism doesn't go away, it's baked in to the support. I can guarantee there will be young Ajax fans today who are still glorifying the battles of those times.
It doesn't take a lot to dog whistle a violent crowd as we saw in the summer. Racism and violence by ultras against a host team with a history of violent football battles was not the smartest move. The clubs should be severely penalised.

HRTFT, but what happened during the minute's silence for Spain? And was that during the match or after, if anyone knows, please.

There was a 1 minute silence in memory to those that have died in Spain. Maccabi hooligans didn’t respect it by making noise and throwing fireworks. The minute silence was just before the match.

link from Spanish news about it. https://as.com/futbol/videos/los-ultras-del-maccabi-sabotearon-el-minuto-de-silencio-en-honor-a-los-fallecidos-por-la-dana-en-valencia-v/

It doesn't take a lot to foster tribalism into violence, much harder to coexist in peace.

Thank you @EasterIssland How very sad

@EasterIsland Oh, I just watched that. Words fail me.

Saying "find the Jews" is antisemitism. However, if you're relying on translation you'll never know whether the words Jews and Israelis have been substituted This is a truly desperate attempt to pretend October 7th was not a racist massacre, even despite it being committed by an Islamist organisation which wants to destroy all the Jews in Israel, and which rules as a dictatorship a land in which no Jews can live.

It's hardly surprising that people conflate Jews with Israelis since it's a concept that's been actively promoted

No, people associate Jews with Israel as Israel is actually a key part of Judaism. Its actually quite a big deal in the Jewish religion. You might want to read up on that. People also associate Israel with Jews as it is the only Jewish State in the world and Jews have a right to seek citizenship there. That's why people associate Jews with Israel, its not some conspiracy theory plot being promoted by Israel as you seem to believe. Its actually been there for thousands of year in Judaism and has existed in Judaism ever since. Not all Jews need to have an affinity with Israel for Israel to be a major part of Judaism and for it to Jewish state for both secular and religious Jews. That is obvious to anyone who doesn't want to have to separate out Israel from being Jewish, as they hate Israel and feel some discomfort that hating the only ethno-religious country for a historically much persecuted minority group does not sit comfortably with their self-image as a non-racist.

@ismu

I'm not excusing that behaviour- just pointing out that language is complex

And to use the phrase ' I am not excusing that behaviour' about the mass racist massacre on October 7th, speaks volumes. ' I am not excusing that behaviour' as if some-one called someone else a rude name or let their dog shit on their lawn or something. That phrase really speaks volumes about how you have internally minimised that racist slaughter, and dehumanised the victims because they are Jews and Israelis. 'I am not excusing that behaviour'. Talk about a Freudian slip revealing what you truly think.

'I am not excusing that behaviour' I just have no words! You clearly think it is possible to excuse it - perhaps you hang out with people who have. Maybe you think you are a moderate because you don't excuse it?!

Let me tell you something, normal people were shocked, distressed, upset, traumatised, appalled by that massacre. Many of use still are. The very last thing we thought was ' 'well I am not excusing that behaviour'.

What has Spain done that Maccabi football fans do not want to respect a minute's silence for their loss? I understand the focus is on the violence afterwards, but the mood before the match started hardly seemed peaceful, and I don't understand the disruption of the minute's silence at all.

Oh@9isfine will you stop.
Historical Judaism and modern Zionism are two entirely different things. Jew≠ Israeli
It's ludicrous. As if we were suddenly policed to start calling all Muslims "Saudis". ^
Or all African Christians -Ethiopians.^ It's insulting to Jewish people who consider themselves citizens of different countries.
The modern Israeli state is a remnant of the same colonialism that created Boer South^ Africa and Rhodesia
( and partitioned India ). It's not historical Israel and no country has the right to chuck people out of their homes and land for religious reasons.^
"Next year in Jerusalem" does not mean we all move there and exterminate anyone we don't like who happens to have landed up there.

The Israelis were set upon AFTER the match ended."
Yes. Things escalated afterwards. Check what they were up to on Wednesday though and Thursday during the day. They were not just visiting in family friendly fun. They were also outside the war memorial in Dam Square behaving in away that people found insulting.

We can say that nobody deserves to be attacked. That Jews (I'd call them Israelis here) shouldn't have to behave well to avoid being victimised. Fair enough. But then you can also say that everybody is responsible for their own actions. And actions have consequences. When you're chanting there are no children in Gaza because you've (your country) killed them all, and you (your country) is committing genocide AS YOU CHANT, there are going to be consequences.

What are you on about?
Did you hear people refer to "hunting the Jews" in English in Amsterdam?

A British guy got beaten just for helping. As the attacker said, "he helped a JewW.

x.com/HeidiBachram/status/1854890410574811184

Spainish Leader called for an end to the arms being supplied to Israel in view of what is happening in in Gaza so those fans thought it appropriate to disturb a minutes silence for people killed in Spain by the floods.

Jews avoid the pro Palestinian marches that are so frequent in London.

Except, I presume, for the thousands of Jews that participate in the pro Palestinian marches? They’re not avoiding them.