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Conflict in the Middle East

Amsterdam

645 replies

EricInk · 08/11/2024 09:58

I can't believe how unbalanced the media reporting is of the events last night

The maccabi fans were behaving atrociously and inciting conflict the entire day, pulling down flags, chanting 'fuck Palestine' and intimidating Dutch Arabs

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 11:45

myearthisflat · 12/11/2024 11:37

Do you think the US cannot?

Of course not.

myearthisflat · 12/11/2024 11:47

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 11:45

Of course not.

"Of course not" as in they cannot influence a European government, or yo do not think that the US cannot influence?

OctoberOctopus · 12/11/2024 11:49

BakedAlaska12 · 12/11/2024 08:45

They don’t need to “elaborate” the views on here. It is written and clear to see.

This is just another “let’s shut down the discussion” card being played out because you are choosing to ask someone to keep going over points for arguments sake. If you can’t follow the narrative and see the different points of views coming from different posters then that’s a you problem.

This.

Plain to see.

myearthisflat · 12/11/2024 11:50

@SharonEllis
If you believe all countries are free and independent, and that democratic countries make their free democratic choices, then our worldview is very, very different.

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 11:50

myearthisflat · 12/11/2024 11:47

"Of course not" as in they cannot influence a European government, or yo do not think that the US cannot influence?

We were talking about restraining the Dutch police. Obviously governments influence each other.

myearthisflat · 12/11/2024 11:51

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 11:50

We were talking about restraining the Dutch police. Obviously governments influence each other.

And the government cannot influence its own police?

Kendodd · 12/11/2024 11:56

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 11:45

Of course not.

Of course governments have influence on each other, amazed you would think for a minute they don't. Governments, influence, persuade, lobby, even bully each other all the time. Why do you think Zelenskis been flying all over the place, do you think he just fancies a holiday?

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 11:57

You said you stand by your original post that the Israeli & US governments were putting pressure, possibly restraining the Dutch police. This is not a serious conversation so Im not playing while you move the goalposts.

Kendodd · 12/11/2024 11:59

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 11:50

We were talking about restraining the Dutch police. Obviously governments influence each other.

Even leaning on other governments about policing happens all the time. I'm not saying this is what Israel have done, but to think they can't/wouldn't/it would have no affect is astonishing.

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 11:59

Kendodd · 12/11/2024 11:56

Of course governments have influence on each other, amazed you would think for a minute they don't. Governments, influence, persuade, lobby, even bully each other all the time. Why do you think Zelenskis been flying all over the place, do you think he just fancies a holiday?

Good lord. Read the thread this is about foreign powers pressurising police forces. Whoever said governments dont exert influence on each other? Cute of you to give me an example of what politicians & diplomats do all the time as if I might not know!

myearthisflat · 12/11/2024 13:37

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 11:57

You said you stand by your original post that the Israeli & US governments were putting pressure, possibly restraining the Dutch police. This is not a serious conversation so Im not playing while you move the goalposts.

"The White House. Biden wakes up and loggs in to his laptop. He sees a message from the CIA telling him that the next Macabi match will be in Amsterdam. He turns to Jill and asks her to google the long number of Ams police department. A couple of minutes later she gives him the number.
-Hello. Do you speak English? Oh, great. Can you please connect me to whoever will be in charge of city policing next week? ... Hi, this is president Biden. Here's what I need you to do next week... "

Sharon, if you thought that's what I implied in my first post, I'm sorry to disappoint. I don't believe this happened.

On the other hand, we agree that more powerful governments do put pressure on the weaker ones.

Alwayslookonthe · 12/11/2024 13:41

Dutch policemen on Amsterdam riot. Translated from Dutch.

"They are still shocked by what happened in the capital of the Netherlands on Thursday night. "The ferocity of the attacks, but also the cowardice to beat up groups of defenseless people in dark alleys and streets. It was disgusting."

Several police officers, who tried to restore some order to the chaos in Amsterdam on Thursday night, spoke independently to De Telegraaf. They were shocked by what they experienced..."After the match won by Ajax, the tension that had been caused by the confrontation with the Israeli football club for weeks seemed to have subsided somewhat. The outflow from the Johan Cruyff ArenA went smoothly and in a reasonably calm atmosphere. We were not surprised that something was going to happen, but we were surprised by the intensity and ferocity in the alleys. We did not take into account enough that the violence would take place in this way later," a police commander reflects.

The following reconstruction is based on conversations with a number of agents and managers. Their names are known to De Telegraaf.
When the referee blows the final whistle on Thursday evening, a significant portion of the police force in and around the ArenA will have already left. Officers are on their way to stations and exit roads to prevent confrontations in the city after the match.

According to all involved, there is hardly any reduction in strength. Hundreds of riot police, arrest units, dog handlers, horse riders and support staff remained on duty all night to ensure a peaceful exit of the thousands of supporters from Israel.

"We were present at all metro and train stations from the ArenA to Central Station," a riot police commander explains. "There were 260 riot police available until midnight, and 200 after that. That's slightly less than during the day, when we also had our hands full all day, but still much more than an average deployment around a football match."

According to police sources, allowing a pro-Palestine demonstration on the nearby Anton de Komplein was not the problem. A police chief: "That protest was reasonably under control. We had good contact with the organisers, who knew of our low tolerance limit. Before and during the first half, we had to constantly respond to this group that was marching towards the ArenA with the riot police. Charges on the Amsterdamse Poort, Foppingadreef and Bijlmerdreef prevented that group from reaching the ArenA. The organisation of this demonstration did not recognise some of the demonstrators present. That was a signal to us. We saw an increase in people who we already suspected were out for trouble."

According to the police, the trouble only started after a large group of Maccabi supporters arrived at the Central Station. It was just after midnight. Incidentally, all sources deny that the Jewish supporters misbehaved or brought aggression upon themselves. "I was there all day and evening," says a riot police officer. "I do not recognise myself at all in the image painted by some, that Maccabi supporters provoked or incited violence. On the contrary. When pro-Israel stickers were put on Dam Square and we explained that this was our national war memorial, everything was neatly removed again."

A colleague adds: “If the entire city is filled with thousands of Israeli supporters and a Palestinian flag is deliberately hung out of the window on Rokin, who is provoking whom?”

Regarding an incident involving a taxi driver who was allegedly assaulted by Jewish supporters, a police officer said: “We are still investigating exactly what happened but the reaction of a group of drivers to then attack a group of Israelis in the Casino was completely out of line. The people who were inside had nothing to do with that incident.”

The speed with which things went wrong during the night still astonishes all the police officers De Telegraaf spoke to. A police officer: "Small fluid groups played a cat-and-mouse game. They followed small groups of two or three supporters, beat them up and disappeared again in cars or on scooters. It didn't just happen in the city centre but also in other parts of the city. We didn't have a good answer at that moment. Especially because we had our hands more than full protecting the large group of supporters, who were also at risk of being attacked."

An experienced riot police officer: "I have never had to run and use my baton as much as that night. We did that to protect Israeli supporters." All officers and their superiors deny that the police merely watched and did nothing.
"Every police officer on the street was busy protecting Jewish supporters. We arranged buses at the GVB to drop off Maccabi supporters at hotels throughout the city. They thanked us warmly for that. It is all the more sad that things went wrong in a number of places. We find it terrible that we could not protect these people," says a police officer.

An officer denies that there was any underestimation. He says: "When we saw that our tactics against this hit and run were less effective, we immediately switched to the strategy of clustering all recognisable Maccabi supporters on the Dam and the Spui to protect them there and offer them safety. Later we took them to hotels by bus..."All the messages on social media are also being looked at," he [a police commander] assures. At the moment, there are two large-scale investigations: one into the perpetrators and one into a possible orchestration behind the Jew hunt.

The underlying problem of anti-Semitism and the apparent lack of clear perpetrator profiles of its instigators is recognised by a riot police officer who also often serves in Amsterdam-West. "These perpetrators of Arab descent do not always have a criminal record, which means we cannot properly determine what kind of person we are dealing with. It is partly the same group that misbehaves at fairs or in the nightlife. The management has also been warned by us in recent months that this will get out of hand at some point. Unfortunately, Jewish people are now the victims. A very clear line has been crossed. This street terror must no longer be tolerated."
https://archive.ph/Pzg0G#selection-985.0-994.0; https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/931019379/geschokte-me-er-over-jodenjacht-ik-herken-me-totaal-niet-in-beeld-dat-maccabi-fans-geweld-uitlokten

Reconstructie van het politieoptreden in Amsterdam. Geschokte ME’er over walgelijke Jodenjacht: ’Nog nooit zo vaak mijn wapenstok gebruikt’

Reconstructie van het politieoptreden in Amsterdam. Hoe kon het toch zo misgaan? Geschokte ME’er over walgelijke Jodenjacht: ’Nog nooit zo vaak mijn wapenstok gebruikt’

https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/931019379/geschokte-me-er-over-jodenjacht-ik-herken-me-totaal-niet-in-beeld-dat-maccabi-fans-geweld-uitlokten

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 13:46

Which is a pretty meaningless conclusion, isn't it? Meanwhile, the dogwhistle that the Israeli government pressurised the Dutch police, in the heat of a riot situation is out there. See how this works?

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 13:47

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 13:46

Which is a pretty meaningless conclusion, isn't it? Meanwhile, the dogwhistle that the Israeli government pressurised the Dutch police, in the heat of a riot situation is out there. See how this works?

In response to @myearthisflat

myearthisflat · 12/11/2024 13:51

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 13:47

In response to @myearthisflat

You still don't see that it could and should have been prevented?
And you don't see the options why that was not done?

whytetulip · 12/11/2024 13:52

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 07:53

What sort of journalist refers to Jewish or Israeli people as 'zionists' ? Massive red flag.

The same that puts Israel in scare quotes, apparently.

GhostCicada · 12/11/2024 14:01

Alwayslookonthe · 12/11/2024 13:41

Dutch policemen on Amsterdam riot. Translated from Dutch.

"They are still shocked by what happened in the capital of the Netherlands on Thursday night. "The ferocity of the attacks, but also the cowardice to beat up groups of defenseless people in dark alleys and streets. It was disgusting."

Several police officers, who tried to restore some order to the chaos in Amsterdam on Thursday night, spoke independently to De Telegraaf. They were shocked by what they experienced..."After the match won by Ajax, the tension that had been caused by the confrontation with the Israeli football club for weeks seemed to have subsided somewhat. The outflow from the Johan Cruyff ArenA went smoothly and in a reasonably calm atmosphere. We were not surprised that something was going to happen, but we were surprised by the intensity and ferocity in the alleys. We did not take into account enough that the violence would take place in this way later," a police commander reflects.

The following reconstruction is based on conversations with a number of agents and managers. Their names are known to De Telegraaf.
When the referee blows the final whistle on Thursday evening, a significant portion of the police force in and around the ArenA will have already left. Officers are on their way to stations and exit roads to prevent confrontations in the city after the match.

According to all involved, there is hardly any reduction in strength. Hundreds of riot police, arrest units, dog handlers, horse riders and support staff remained on duty all night to ensure a peaceful exit of the thousands of supporters from Israel.

"We were present at all metro and train stations from the ArenA to Central Station," a riot police commander explains. "There were 260 riot police available until midnight, and 200 after that. That's slightly less than during the day, when we also had our hands full all day, but still much more than an average deployment around a football match."

According to police sources, allowing a pro-Palestine demonstration on the nearby Anton de Komplein was not the problem. A police chief: "That protest was reasonably under control. We had good contact with the organisers, who knew of our low tolerance limit. Before and during the first half, we had to constantly respond to this group that was marching towards the ArenA with the riot police. Charges on the Amsterdamse Poort, Foppingadreef and Bijlmerdreef prevented that group from reaching the ArenA. The organisation of this demonstration did not recognise some of the demonstrators present. That was a signal to us. We saw an increase in people who we already suspected were out for trouble."

According to the police, the trouble only started after a large group of Maccabi supporters arrived at the Central Station. It was just after midnight. Incidentally, all sources deny that the Jewish supporters misbehaved or brought aggression upon themselves. "I was there all day and evening," says a riot police officer. "I do not recognise myself at all in the image painted by some, that Maccabi supporters provoked or incited violence. On the contrary. When pro-Israel stickers were put on Dam Square and we explained that this was our national war memorial, everything was neatly removed again."

A colleague adds: “If the entire city is filled with thousands of Israeli supporters and a Palestinian flag is deliberately hung out of the window on Rokin, who is provoking whom?”

Regarding an incident involving a taxi driver who was allegedly assaulted by Jewish supporters, a police officer said: “We are still investigating exactly what happened but the reaction of a group of drivers to then attack a group of Israelis in the Casino was completely out of line. The people who were inside had nothing to do with that incident.”

The speed with which things went wrong during the night still astonishes all the police officers De Telegraaf spoke to. A police officer: "Small fluid groups played a cat-and-mouse game. They followed small groups of two or three supporters, beat them up and disappeared again in cars or on scooters. It didn't just happen in the city centre but also in other parts of the city. We didn't have a good answer at that moment. Especially because we had our hands more than full protecting the large group of supporters, who were also at risk of being attacked."

An experienced riot police officer: "I have never had to run and use my baton as much as that night. We did that to protect Israeli supporters." All officers and their superiors deny that the police merely watched and did nothing.
"Every police officer on the street was busy protecting Jewish supporters. We arranged buses at the GVB to drop off Maccabi supporters at hotels throughout the city. They thanked us warmly for that. It is all the more sad that things went wrong in a number of places. We find it terrible that we could not protect these people," says a police officer.

An officer denies that there was any underestimation. He says: "When we saw that our tactics against this hit and run were less effective, we immediately switched to the strategy of clustering all recognisable Maccabi supporters on the Dam and the Spui to protect them there and offer them safety. Later we took them to hotels by bus..."All the messages on social media are also being looked at," he [a police commander] assures. At the moment, there are two large-scale investigations: one into the perpetrators and one into a possible orchestration behind the Jew hunt.

The underlying problem of anti-Semitism and the apparent lack of clear perpetrator profiles of its instigators is recognised by a riot police officer who also often serves in Amsterdam-West. "These perpetrators of Arab descent do not always have a criminal record, which means we cannot properly determine what kind of person we are dealing with. It is partly the same group that misbehaves at fairs or in the nightlife. The management has also been warned by us in recent months that this will get out of hand at some point. Unfortunately, Jewish people are now the victims. A very clear line has been crossed. This street terror must no longer be tolerated."
https://archive.ph/Pzg0G#selection-985.0-994.0; https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/931019379/geschokte-me-er-over-jodenjacht-ik-herken-me-totaal-niet-in-beeld-dat-maccabi-fans-geweld-uitlokten

And they wonder why tensions flare. Seriously. I mean how can you expect Israelis to control themselves when they see gasp a Palestinian flag. It's no wonder they walked the streets chanting death to Arabs at random locals when they had been 'provoked' in such a heinous manner.

I can't see this being resolved any time soon when that is the attitude of the police.

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 14:03

myearthisflat · 12/11/2024 13:51

You still don't see that it could and should have been prevented?
And you don't see the options why that was not done?

I have no clue what you're talking about.

myearthisflat · 12/11/2024 14:21

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 14:03

I have no clue what you're talking about.

That's ok. Neither of us have any power to change things for real, or we would not be talking to strangers on mn.

SharonEllis · 12/11/2024 14:24

myearthisflat · 12/11/2024 14:21

That's ok. Neither of us have any power to change things for real, or we would not be talking to strangers on mn.

I think people do have the power to change things & everyone has a responsibility to play their part.

myearthisflat · 12/11/2024 14:27

@SharonEllis And I believe some people occasionally have such power.
Our actions do affect those around us, but that's not the same imo

Dulra · 12/11/2024 14:28

"These perpetrators of Arab descent do not always have a criminal record, which means we cannot properly determine what kind of person we are dealing with. It is partly the same group that misbehaves at fairs or in the nightlife.
I find this paragraph pretty counter productive in race relations. Has nothing been learnt about racial profiling? Do they mean same group of people as in same gang or same ethnicity? It's pretty unclear

Usernamesareboring1 · 12/11/2024 14:35

EasterIssland · 12/11/2024 10:27

I might be wrong but I believe maccabi supporters attacked a taxi driver the day before. I can see it being related as to why taxi drivers then attacked maccabi supporters. I’m not justifying it but trying to understand why it was taxi drivers who did the attacks

islamophobia , antisemitism and attacks is wrong for both sides. Police , politicians and press have criticised one and done a blind eye for the another one when they were as bad

Edited

There is video footage even if them attacking his car with chains and they dragged him from the vehicle. Footage which some news outlets are reposting as attacks on the Maccabi fans. He claims he reported the attack to the police and they didn't do anything. The taxi driver has apparently instructed a lawyer so it will be interesting to see what comes of it.

yesmen · 12/11/2024 14:54

The Maccabi fans who started violence and hateful chanting were wrong, fights between football hooligans are wrong but it could have been left there and it would have been more clear cut.
The reaction by people in Amsterdam then going out and targeting Jews was abhorrent.

I think that switch is where the misunderstanding occurs between the two positions.

It was club match, not an internaltional and as such it was violence IN THE BEGINNING by Ultras. Ultras always look for fights regardless of ethnicity or religion. If you remember anything about football violence all through 90s and 2000s, the Ultras from certain clubs do go hunting each other. They are really scary and cost most European hundreds of millions of pounds/euros in damage.

Most countries did a terrific job of getting a handle on it, but some clubs, mainly a few English, Italian, German and Israeli are still nasty for Ultra violence.

GhostCicada · 12/11/2024 15:03

yesmen · 12/11/2024 14:54

The Maccabi fans who started violence and hateful chanting were wrong, fights between football hooligans are wrong but it could have been left there and it would have been more clear cut.
The reaction by people in Amsterdam then going out and targeting Jews was abhorrent.

I think that switch is where the misunderstanding occurs between the two positions.

It was club match, not an internaltional and as such it was violence IN THE BEGINNING by Ultras. Ultras always look for fights regardless of ethnicity or religion. If you remember anything about football violence all through 90s and 2000s, the Ultras from certain clubs do go hunting each other. They are really scary and cost most European hundreds of millions of pounds/euros in damage.

Most countries did a terrific job of getting a handle on it, but some clubs, mainly a few English, Italian, German and Israeli are still nasty for Ultra violence.

That poster seems to be under the misunderstanding that it was 'fights between football hooligans' when it wasn't. Israelis weren't targeting their rival team, they were targeting local people based on their ethnicity. Their chants were racist based on people's ethnicities. It wasn't 'two sides' it was Israelis coming to Amsterdam and being violent and racist to locals who were just trying to live and work.

Absolutely random Jewish people shouldn't have been targeted. I'm glad the police took action. Random Dutch Arabs were targeted though and nothing was done. There are videos of the police just watching it happen. That's where the second flare up came from. Why don't those random people matter just as much as random Jewish people? People don't want the police to ignore antisemitism they want police to deal with all other types of targeted violence too.