Hamas don’t want peace

[Icanthinkformyselfthanks]

A two day ceasefire was offered to them in return for four hostages but they declined. Antony Blinken, the US secretary of state, said Hamas “once again refused to release even a limited number of hostages to secure a ceasefire and relief for the people of Gaza”.
Isreal has now offered a million dollars for each hostage and safe passage out of Gaza for their captors. Hamas have yet to respond.

Actually I do think citizens with oppressive leaders have a responsibility to get rid of them or change the running of their country where the impact of that seeps out into other countries being attacked.

So how would you have responded to the October 7 attacks?

Do you think Israelis have/had a responsibility to get rid of their leaders? They live in democracy so it should be pretty easy but instead they've chosen a government that protects violent settlers, that enforces the stealing of land, that enforces apartheid on people in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, that chooses to occupy other people's land, all of which causes huge security issues for Israel and there is the obvious horror that living under apartheid, occupation and blockade brings to the lives of Palestinians.

I am French and I am the daughter of parents who grew up under German occupation and whose great uncle was sent to a forced labour camp in Germany.
What is happening in Gaza, in the words of my 95 years old aunt, is as bad.
400 000 French died between 1939 and 1945. That's roughly 66 000 a year.
I believe the number of deaths in Gaza is probably higher.
I find it revolting that some believe that it was a tragedy for France but totally acceptable for Gaza.

You appear to have forgotten that Netanyahu funded Hamas for years. I guess it is convenient oversight.

Sort it how exactly? And please answer as to whether you think the Palestinian citizens deserve what is being done to them right now?

Actually no. As you say they live in a democracy. They can chose their leaders at the ballot box. What you describe is fairly subjective and not both sides would describe it the way you have. Presumably, due to democracy the majority of Israelis support the Government.

Do you think the majority of people in Gaza support the actions of Hamas on October 7.

Do any citizens deserve what happens in a war? But sometimes ears are just and necessary. Do you think any individual who died in the bombing of Dresden deserved it, but presumably you think the allies stopping Hitler was just?

Actually I do think citizens with oppressive leaders have a responsibility to get rid of them or change the running of their country where the impact of that seeps out into other countries being attacked.
Fair enough if that is what you think, I don't share your opinion because I live in the real world. You seem to be missing the how part but that's probably not important. Have you examples of it happening (without external support) in the past that could maybe demonstrate how it could happen. Do you think they may have had a better chance if Israel hadn't armed Hamas in the past? Do you think they'd have a better chance if they weren't under occupation and had access to the materials needed to stage such a coup? Do you think they'd have a better chance if western democratic nations could have supported them with arms and intelligence to overthrow Hamas?

Um I think you will find that the ICJ doesn't agree with you there, it's about what the courts have decided not how either side describes it. There is nothing 'subjective' about apartheid and occupation it is happening. So you think that the majority of Israelis support apartheid and occupation so it's OK to keep voting in a government that enforces it. So long as the oppressive government is a democracy everything is fine. Interesting viewpoint for sure.

Your post is highly offensive on so many levels.
Do you think that the 12 millions who died at the hands of the Nazi regime, the 20 millions at the hand of Staline, the nearly 4 millions in Bengal at the hand of Churchill should bear responsibility for that?

Absolutely beyond belief!
To answer your question, the Israeli government could have and should have used their intelligence service to track down the terrorists and eliminated them.
By the way, the Israeli government ignored the warnings of an imminent attack and it took 6 hours for the IDF to respond. 6 hours!!!!! Let's not forget that The Hannibal directive was also deployed on that horrendous day.
Does Netanyahu bear some responsibility for that?
What Hamas did was evil but I cannot help thinking how many would have been saved if only the warnings have heeded and the IDF's response so much faster.
Don't you?

You haven’t said why a perfectly valid comparison is “highly offensive” on any level. Because it is not, you will note, if you stopped trying to misrepresent/totally ignore what I said is that individual citizens are not to blame ever in a war, but sometimes a war is justified. Stop stop with your twisting and misrepresentation- mind you that is the basis for your entire “argument “. You basically don’t want Israel to defend itself. Your arguments are non- existent.

ah I see you’re now a specialist on military tactics, maybe we could have by-passed I’m sure Israel have used their intelligence and found Hamas hidden behind human shields. Hamas need defeating - I’m sure Israel has weighed up options.

What a very predictable response on your part, straight out a text book on how to deflect and gaslight.
I would like to add what I find offensive or not isn't up to you to decide. This is also a way of denying others ' feeling. If someone accused me of being offensive, I would apologise, It's called having integrity.
You also accuse me of twisting and misrepresenting your post whilst you are actually doing this to mine, especially when you wrote " You basically don’t want Israel to defend itself". Please, quote back at me where I actually said this. I will wait.
You also asked me question but when I answered it, you used sarcasm. Why? Couldn't you counter argue it instead?
In all, I am wasting my time here. But before I go, please listen to Gabor Mate for an example on how to counter argue effectively.

How would you suggest the Palestinians "get rid of Hamas"? How should the Palestinians "solve the problem"?

(The problem they didn't start and didn't ask for).

I recall people did try. There were efforts to prevent them taking power, efforts to resist them and efforts to seek external help. Participating in such activities dramatically shortened people's life expectancies, and had a tendency to lead to rather unpleasant 'accidents'. And there was little interest from elsewhere in getting involved when Netanyahu et al were propping them up along with Iran. Hamas were useful to Netanyahu and his friends, and useful to Iran, so the international community left Palestinians to suffer, knowing they did not have the resources to challenge Hamas meaningfully - they couldn't engage in meaningful political debates and processes, they couldn't launch an uprising, they couldn't really do very much about a government that held on to power by not holding elections and governing through fear. A politician once said "We only have to win once" - and this is an example of how that works out.

Complete total garbage. What's happening now is the DIRECT result of over 100 years of western imperialism, Zionist colonialism, ethnic cleansing and genocide.

But loads of times you have wrongly equated the IDF to Hamas… so which one is it?

Don’t worry, we know it’s the one where Israel can be constantly attacked but can never defend.

Israel is a country which claims to have democratic processes and government. Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation and is not in itself a country, although the organisation has kept a hold on power in part of Palestine (through rather questionable methods including the prevention of democratic elections). People should hold a supposedly democratic country to a higher standard than is expected from a proscribed terrorist organisation.

The conduct of the IDF has been reprehensible enough that there are indeed similarities in conduct between it and violent paramilitary and terrorist forces, in terms of acts carried out. It is tragic that any official military force has become so detached from the principles and laws to which it was meant to adhere, in order to protect others. Former soldiers I know are horrified by and ashamed of what the IDF has become. These are people who used to feel a sense of pride about their service and their contribution to keeping people safe in a country they loved. They don't recognise that in the force operating today.

But loads of times you have wrongly equated the IDF to Hamas…
Me? When?
I know the IDF are not a terrorist organisation but some of their actions are definitely terrorising innocent civilians.

Don’t worry, we know it’s the one where Israel can be constantly attacked but can never defend.
No one has an issue with Israel defending but that's not what they're doing.

This. Same old, same old.

There is no global poll on how many of us support Zionism.
Which country and which poll are you (ab)using as representative of all of us the world over?

Or the result of oppression and persecution of the Jews for thousands of years by many cultures especially the Arabs. This particular time it was because Hamas decided to target men women and children to commit acts of torture, rape , murder and kidnap. This war is the fault of the those people.,

Of course that’s what they are doing. What else are you accusing them of?

Do you really need another list of the war crimes, human rights abuses and other heinous acts documented to have been carried out by, incited by and approved by the Israeli government and IDF?

If another country were responsible for these acts against your own country, your own loved ones, would you genuinely, hand on heart, be ok with that?

For those confused on Zionism, I present the Jerusalem Program. It is a requirement to agree to the Jerusalem Program to be a Zionist. (latest April 2023 resolution affirms this “Whereas the World Zionist Organization requires every member of the Zionist movement to accept the Jerusalem Program;”)

“THE JERUSALEM PROGRAM IS THE OFFICIAL PLATFORM OF THE WORLD ZIONIST ORGANIZATION AND THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT
Zionism, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, brought about the establishment of the State of Israel and views a Jewish, Zionist, democratic, and secure State of Israel to be the expression of the common responsibility of the Jewish people for its continuity and future.

The foundations of Zionism are:
The unity of the Jewish people, its bond to its historic homeland Eretz Yisrael, and the centrality of the State of Israel and Jerusalem, its capital, in the life of the nation.

Aliyah to Israel from all countries and the effective integration of all immigrants into Israeli society.

Strengthening Israel as a Jewish, Zionist, and democratic state and shaping it as an exemplary society with a unique moral and spiritual character, marked by mutual respect for the multi-faceted Jewish people, rooted in the vision of the prophets, striving for peace and contributing to the betterment of the world.

Ensuring the future and the distinctiveness of the Jewish people by furthering Jewish, Hebrew, and Zionist education, fostering spiritual and cultural values, and teaching Hebrew as the national language.

Nurturing mutual Jewish responsibility, defending the rights of Jews as individuals and as a nation, representing the national Zionist interests of the Jewish people, and struggling against all manifestations of anti-Semitism.

Settling the country as an expression of practical Zionism.”

The last may be a surprise to some posters who have said the settler principle is not Zionist, but extremist. Settlement is and always has been part of Zionism.

But wait there is more.
The most recently adopted resolution from the April 2023 Extraordinary Zionist World Congress also affirms the following principle:

“Zionism is a movement that defends the basic principles of justice, equality and democracy and rejects discrimination on the grounds of origin, nationality or race or gender or sexual orientation, and committed to the founding document of the State of Israel, the Declaration of Independence.”

Note the absence of religion. Zionism allows discrimination on the basis of religion as a founding principle of the State of Israel. Anyone not Jewish can be discriminated against.

The problem I have as a Jewish woman with Zionism is that it is my opinion that you can’t have a modern democratic state with justice and equality while allowing discrimination on the basis of religion. It is an oxymoron as much as when countries claimed to be modern democracies while discriminating on the basis of sex against we women.

source: https://www.wzo.org.il/en/

It's strange how you expect Palestinians to take responsibility for just about everything but your expectations of Israel are on the floor.

Just ignore the fact that Israel are illegal occupiers, operating military blockades and apartheid, it's not like it's an important feature of the decades long struggles between Israel and Palestine.