How many more will Israel kill?

[Whatsinanamehey]

Nearly a 100 people reportedly killed in the north of Gaza today from a strike in Beit Lahia. Many of the dead are small children with some of the footage the most shocking I have seen. Dead children still trapped under the rubble and countless more injured. How can they continue to kill like this? How can this still be justified as self defence? How can such callous disregard for human life be condoned?

Of course the problem on the other side is not just Netanyahu. (The same way it's not just Putin in Russia). But BN's government is extreme.
My point is not that "it's a good idea to change him", but rather that negotiations with him have led to nothing and will not result in peace simply because his position is too compromised.

But its lazy, offensive, inaccurate & ahistorical to make comparisons with 1930s fascism.
Thirteen Holocaust survivors have made the comparison. Do you think they are being lazy, inaccurate and ahistorical?
Thirteen Holocaust survivors compare Zionist policies to those of the Nazis | Jewish Voice for Labour

I have come to the same conclusion too but I feel that we need to challenge their beliefs, even if we don't get through.

Of course holocaust survivors who experienced it can make the comparison. Others shouldnt, just as we all say things about our own family, or community, or race, that would be unacceptable for others to say. And my point was its unhelpful because in the comments that were being made here it didn't add anything. If something is objectively wrong say so & explain why. As this conversation has shown just referreing to 1930s fascism is basically a dog whistle, it doesnt expand anyone's understanding and doesn't support a constructive conversation.

Oh really Sharon, clutching at straws now at who can and can't say what according to you.

I welcome constructive criticism, regardless of what or who is criticised because that's how you learn and develop.
I also tend to think that, if an Holocaust survivor makes the comparison, there must be some truth in it. They need to be listened to because they know what they are talking about. Are they wrong? If not, then others stating it cannot be either.

@SharonEllis I don't recall seeing a post here that compares the current war with the Holocaust. I mentioned it in the context of the formation of Israel and it would be almost impossible to deny it was a factor.

The clear parallels with 1930s Europe are not just in the ultra right wing nationalism, genocide and ethnic cleansing, but especially the international appeasement.

There will be no lasting peace until Israel recognizes the sacrifices made by the Palestinians in order for it to exist.

How can two people say the same thing, but one person is inaccurate and ahistorical but the other isn't? Depending on what is being said, it might be that something is insensitive for someone to say, but surely accuracy is accuracy (or inaccuracy) regardless of the person saying it...

You would think so.

The videos on social media of the 2 injured children whose mother was killed in front of them (today? I'm not sure when exactly) are breaking my heart. I can't repost from Instagram but the video is on the Eye on Palestine account.

The trauma in the little girl's face is just shocking.

Such a tragedy. So needless. I can't bear what this is doing to so many children.

There may well be some parallels but there are also some significant differences ( eg no equivalent of an October 7th attack on 1930’s Germany / no equivalent of Hamas / no equivalent of Iranian funding of terrorism) so the comparison is not particularly apt.

It is also the case that many Jewish people have great sympathy for the terrible suffering the Palestinians are enduring but comparing Israel to 1930s Germany is taking the legitimate criticism and using it to poke at a very raw and sensitive wound.
It’s not necessary and it doesn’t help anyone.

@Limesodaagain true, but that's deflecting from the much more disturbing similarities.

I was pretty careful to state 1930s Europe just because of the international and imperial aspect. There may not exact analogies but all the fundamentals are there. Both 1930s European politics and current ME troubles are rooted in the conflicts, empires and imperial attitudes of the past.

All conflicts have roots in the past …and are generally about land and security so that comparison is meaningless.
It’s not deflecting to say that there are aspects to the Israel / Palestine conflict that are very different to the tensions that existed in 1930’s Europe. It’s an unhelpful analogy in many ways and it doesn’t help to increase understanding or sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians.

All genocides are going to have similarities.

@TakeMe2Insanity

"bellinisurge
It's horrendous. Give the hostages back. It ends.

Ridiculous mantra. Netanyahu doesnt give a damn about the hostages."

Maybe he doesn't or maybe he does.

I guess there is only one way to find out and that is by releasing the hostages, especially given that they are of no value to Hamas, releasing them gives Hamas more credibility than keeping them and it also takes away yet another reason for Israel to justify its presence in Gaza.

Maybe the simplest way to stop the genocide in Gaza and the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank is for Israel to stop the genocide in Gaza and the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.

At the start of this conflict I used to think exactly this - just return the hostages..
I also understood that even with the hostages returned Israel would want to ensure October 7th wouldn’t happen again by defeating Hamas.

I think it’s now very very clear that Hamas do not represent Palestinians’ interests nor do they care about Palestinians and therefore the continual assault on Palestinian civilians is irrelevant to them - except in the sense that it presents Israel in a terrible light in international opinion which obviously works well for Hamas ( and Iran) because they view Palestinians as “collateral damage “

Therefore I cannot see how continuing to bomb Palestinians ( apart from being a moral outrage) is helpful to Israel’s security .
The people holding the hostages do not care about the suffering of Gazans And Israeli bombing is just used by them to turn world opinion against Israel.

That's interesting. At the start of this conflict Israeli government ministers were calling this 'Nakba 2023' and the defence minister openly said that they were going to 'obliterate everything'. Was there a reason that you didn't believe what Israel were saying and instead chose to believe that all they wanted was to get the hostages back and defeat Hamas? Given the mass destruction Gaza and the mass displacement of Palestinians do you believe what they said at the start of the conflict now?

I was responding to a different poster.
But in answer to your ( rather aggressive) question- in the aftermath of October 7th a lot of emotive rhetoric was being said … on both sides.
And no - I don’t believe everything government ministers say.

@GhostCicada at the start of this conflict? By which you mean the October 7 slaughter?

all Jews left Gaza in 2003 - it could be flourishing now.

why are not livid at Hamas?

The withdrawal was in 2005 and Gaza has remained under blockade and oppression. Things might have been different if bolstering Hamas hadn't been an ongoing policy (see picture)... Palestine could have thrived, but certain powers didn't want that, so did all they could to sabotage and prevent opportunities.

Also, not all Israelis are Jewish and not all Jewish people are Israelis, so if you're talking about Israelis, my understanding is that you should probably say Israelis.

Aggressive? I think you are projecting there.

Thanks for answering. It's interesting that even when a governments words and actions align people still choose to believe their own narrative.

I’m not at all sure what you mean by this .

I mean in the days following Oct 7 yes.

And no, Gaza could not be flourishing, Israel have had Gaza under military occupation and blockade since 2005. The blockade coupled with the repeated destruction of Gazas infrastructure have been done specifically to hinder development in Gaza. I was reading recently that if the blockade persists it will take 350 years for Gaza to recover to 2022 levels because the blockade hinders development.

I don't expect you to actually acknowledge that though because it doesn't tally with the soundbites that you have been taught.