How many more will Israel kill?

[Whatsinanamehey]

Nearly a 100 people reportedly killed in the north of Gaza today from a strike in Beit Lahia. Many of the dead are small children with some of the footage the most shocking I have seen. Dead children still trapped under the rubble and countless more injured. How can they continue to kill like this? How can this still be justified as self defence? How can such callous disregard for human life be condoned?

It should be possible to make your points very convincingly without reference to the Holocaust or causing offence to Jewish people.
There are posters who do this very successfully

Israel is not a western imperial project. This is such nonsense and betrays a complete misunderstanding of the history - how many times have we gone over this? . If that's your starting point, which you claim to have thought long and hard about there is really no point.

Lets assume for a moment that it is fascism, for the sake of argument. Its obviously NOT 1930s. Its 2020s. Say when you mean. Be accurate. Don't be needlessly offensive. You know its offensive. You know it falls under the international definition of antisemitism. Its grotesque and serves only to create division and argument and upset. Why do you want to upset people? Why do you want to detract from your own argument?

Offourse it isn't anti-semitic to say that! You seem to be more offended by words that depict the truth, rather than the actual crime.

And you are avoiding the questions.

@Limesodaagain I do get it I really do but after years of protest at the actions of Israel, and in particular since the 7/10 atrocity, the world seems to be walking into the same trap.

It's absolutely true that there are other abuses of the like currently being undertaken by Israel, but I can't think of any in recent memory that threatened to take the whole world with it.

In fairness you responded to their post which contained the question - if this isn't fascism what is it? So maybe you could answer that since you responded to the post. What is that image to you?

It is very much debated academically whether it is or not, with no definitive answer on it, so I am not sure anyone here is qualified to determine if it is or isn't.

Who in your view is qualified?

No one! There are arguments for and against on both sides with different definitions used, to me it seems to come down to semantics.

I found this article quite balanced on it

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/24128715/israel-palestine-conflict-settler-colonialism-zionism-history-debate

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

You have just proved my point different opinions on it. You support one, someone else will support another.

It's hard to argue with much of the article, particularly:

“The most famous Zionist intellectual of the early 20th century, Asher Ginsberg, who went under the pen name of Ahad Ha-am, was against the establishment of a Jewish state,” Penslar told Vox. “He was very well aware of the Arab population of Palestine, and he said, ‘look, you know, we basically can’t get these people against us. We can’t anger them, we have to live with these people.’ And so he advocated forming much smaller communities that would not antagonize the Arab populations.”

I read both of the articles above.
Interestingly both seemed to me to say that there's little point in arguing about the semantics of whether or not it's settler colonialism etc, the important thing is to find the way forward.

There can be no way forward with the death cult Hamas.

If not by Israel's war, how does anyone think Hamas can be gotten rid of? They allow no opposition, no elections. They're an evil parasite sucking on the blood of their own citizens.

Conversely, Netanyahu can be gotten rid of by democratic process.

There's 2 parties at war here. Hamas and Isreal. Surely we can agree that Hamas is the most evil? If not by war, how do we get rid of them?

Once Hamas is gone, Netanyahu is gone, perhaps both sides can move forward. Both sides have a rightful claim on the land in my opinion.

You're leaving out the genocide part. I think it's quite important and relevant.

Which genocide were you referring to?
The one Hamas repeatedly say they'd like to carry out on the Jews but lack the resources to carry out?
Or possible one that Israel may or may not be currently carrying out, opinions may differ?

You have 2 groups of people with an extremely complicated history, both led by governments with ideologies opposed to peace. There's a war going on between these 2 groups that I think most posters on here would like to see finished.

In order for that conflict to end, Hamas have to be removed from power, or as by their own admission, they'll keep commuting atrocities like 7 October.

Getting rid of Hamas is the first step on the road to peace.

How do you think Hamas should be gotten rid of?

Yes, the second one. The one that exists.

Ah OK. So, are you going to answer any of my questions? Or do you require me to agree with your appraisal beforehand?

What question? How could we possibly get rid of Hamas without also destroying Gaza and harming everyone who lives there?

Personally, I think that giving Palestinians back their land is the first step to peace. There cannot be peace whilst Israel insist on being occupiers. Would you feel at peace under military occupation? Sure Israel can change governments but all of these far right characters and all of their supporters arent just going to disappear out of government. They are voted in repeatedly.

If Israelis didn't want to be occupiers they wouldn't be but enough of them want to be or don't care that they are enough to change it. There are over 700,000 Israeli settlers. This isn't a small inconsequential thing. Some kind of fringe movement. It's 10% of their population that have actually chosen to be settlers. It is actually a minority view that the settlements are bad(35%). So long as Israelis hold this majority view that they are entitled to ride roughshod over Palestinians rights there will never be peace. Hamas can be dealt with but it won't change anything because people don't like having their homes and land stolen and their basic rights taken away from.

Do you agree that getting rid of Hamas is a prerequisite for peace?
And how should Hamas be gotten rid of?

I agree that giving Palestinians land for their own state somewhere inside of Israel is part of the peace process.

However, I feel getting rid of Hamas comes first. Otherwise Hamas keeps coming for innocent Israelis.

Do you think Isreal should agree to a Palestinian state with Hamas in charge?

I think for as long as Israel continues to occupy Palestinian land and brutalise Palestinians there'll always be a Hamas so I don't think that destroying Gaza is going to solve the Hamas problem.