Currently Israel are fighting Hanas in Gaza, The Houthis in Yeman and Hezbollah in Lebanon.

[YoYoYoYo12345]

One country taking on so many terrorist organisations.

Or is it so many terrorist organisations constantly attacking Israel.

So many hate filled terrorists. Why don't they ever focus on their own people and a better life for them. Are they all raving mad.

I prefer to apply logic and common sense
Yeah sure that's what you're applying

Shame no independent observers are allowed in to verify what's happening. What are the Israeli government so afraid of?

They saw the children getting shot?

Or they saw the bullet wounds from snipers they presumed to be Israeli?

So the medical professionals accounts aren't to be believed and no independent observers allowed it to verify. Convenient

That doesn't answer my question. It is a fair question. Though tbf hamas publicised strategy is to strafe with automatic weapons, use rocket launchers or suicide bombers. I would be surprised if their ranks did not include snipers.

I'm not sure what you don't find logical about the Drs accounts? Did you not hear about the American protester that was executed in the West Bank or the 16 year old girl that was shot in the head by snipers for looking out of her window in the West Bank or the 16 year old boy who was walking home from school when he was shot in the head and killed in the West Bank or the 8yo boy who was shot in the head as he ran away from the IDF in the West Bank. Why is it not logical to think that the IDF are also killing children by shooting them in the head in Gaza as experienced professionals are testifying?

Here is an article from 2020 talking about 'another victim-sniper kills 15 yo Palestinian boy'.
https://www.btselem.org/firearms/20201230killingofaliabualiainalmughayir

I'm not sure that I follow your 'logic and common sense' on this at all when the IDF have a track record of shooting children?

You believe Hamas are the ones that have shot those children and the IDF had nothing to do with it?

Israel really need to let journalists back in so they can get the truth out because at the moment the world thinks it's IDF soldiers.

Wow. Wow. Catching up with these pages (& pages) and its very clear what @Daftasabroom is advocating. What is horrifying is the number of people who have not picked her up on it but just carried on with their own nit picky arguments, and failed to support those people who have challenged. This really is a new low.

It's possible the IDF shot them. But not beyond reasonable doubt. Maybe the IDF should use go pro cameras like Hamas.
I'm not against independent journalists in the field.

We've seen the footage of 7/10 so we know hamas are psychopaths.
We know they have no qualms about killing Gazans.
We know they have no qualms about killing children.
We know they see Gazans as pawns in their propaganda war.
On another thread we heard of a hezbollah operative who bashed out the brains of a 4 yr old Israeli girl with a rock and a rifle butt...he was 16.

tbf I thought not answering my question about whether hamas, hezbollah and the houthis were improving the situation told me all I needed to know about their viewpoint.
The rest was just exposing the lack of critical thinking that leads to that viewpoint.

That’s not what’s been implied. The medical professionals believe the accounts they’ve been given. That doesn’t provide evidence that they are correct though.

Seeing the video of the two Palestinians in Gaza who were lynched and strung up for being accused of colluding with Israel and the young boys beaten and shot for trying to take food (which is probably the tip of the iceberg and for a long time because who would really WANT to live under terrorist control in an ‘open air prison’ in poverty and fear), I have no doubt that ordinary Palestinians are very fearful of speaking out against the terrorist militias living amongst and hiding behind them.

Their leaders ideology is that they want Palestinian blood spilled for their cause and a mother’s duty is to raise their children for Jihad and martyrdom which means continuous war btw…….

The last two links are from 2013/2014.

https://palwatch.org/page/34835

https://www.timesofisrael.com/encouraging-our-children-to-kill-themselves-for-palestine-is-a-mothers-most-glorious-duty-says-wife-of-hamas-mp/amp/

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-181056/

Yup. Unbelievable. And if you accuse a poster of being antisemitic, you get deleted.

This - and the poor response I received from MN about an antisemitic and factually incorrect post earlier, encouraging me to "challenge" it instead of expecting them to delete it - is pretty much the tipping point for me and MN.

Note for MN - it's not acceptable to expect minorities to constantly have to argue with people posting racist, offensive things on here.

That’s not what’s been implied. The medical professionals believe the accounts they’ve been given. That doesn’t provide evidence that they are correct though.

That's the point, without independent observers in none of us know for sure what's happening. That is not good for Palestinians, not good for Israelis and not good for the medical professionals who are not comfortable with being the only people providing an independent account of what they're witnessing. The Israeli government are the only ones that can change that and it is incredibly frustrating to have accounts of what's happening thrown into doubt, and it does make people suspicious about why independent journalists and observers are not getting access.

Indeed.

I don't think it is somehow.

What I am advocating is: an immediate withdrawal of all military and non-humanitarian support to Israel, by the UK Government, until it stops and takes steps to reverse all expansion by Israel beyond the 1948 borders. Start by rolling back to 1967.

It would be great if the US could push for something similar.

The US should renegotiate the Iran nuclear deal.

A halt to arms to Saudi in return for a wider regional entente.

Beyond this the historical British role in the whole of the middle east region gives us absolutely no authority whatever. We would be wise to stay well clear.

Israel exists, it's ridiculous to try deny it, I haven't done so. This despite the pitiful straw men, the whataboutism, the non sequiturs, rhetoric and childish goading.

Israel exists, it's ridiculous to try deny it

Yes it does, the question below was straightforward on whether it should exist as your posts were not clear

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/palestine-gaza-itv-report-israel-shot-dead-live-tv-b2483877.html

Do you think that this is logical and common sense? Does this seem like an army that cares about who they kill?

Nobody is saying Hamas are good guys but the absolute belief that it isn't logical for the IDF to shoot children so some made up story that they concocted is probably true despite what Drs say, despite what Palestinian eye witnesses say, despite the IDFs track record of behaviour that has ended in the deaths of Palestinians is really, really illogical.

It's really sad that Palestinians are trapped in a war zone, with no independent witnesses allowed and nobody will believe their experiences. Their children are shot dead, toddlers shot in the head and chest and people don't believe them. Instead people think it is appropriate to talk about Palestinian 'mothers duty to raise their children for martyrdom'.

Should Palestine exist?

Of course, I neither wish to remove Israel nor Palestine

The problem atm is I don’t think Hamas can be the authority. There needs to be a legitimate gov to represent the people, not a terrorist organisation

until it stops and takes steps to reverse all expansion by Israel beyond the 1948 borders. Start by rolling back to 1967.

In your earlier post you said:

“It's simple, Israel withdraws from all the regions it has invaded and colonized since 1967. Israelis hand back the land and property they have stolen from the previous owners.
Then do the same back to 1948 borders, and then same again to pre mandate borders.”

Where would Israel withdraw to “to pre mandate borders”?

A two state solution is the only viable solution.

But while Russia vs USA-NATO continues to play out via Iran and Saudi it's going to be hard.

Trump withdrawing from the Iran nuclear deal was pivotal in this (IMO).

Thanks! I knew some air-brushing had gone on but couldn’t find the original post to prove it.

Waiting expectantly for @Daftasabroom to explain…

Wtf are premandate borders?
Are they the ones drawn up by the western imperialist Ottomans?

😂 indeed must be.

Can you show me where in the video it shows IDF troops shooting dead this poor man as I can’t see it?

It was obviously an active combat zone so I assume both the IDF and a terrorist combatants were in the vicinity.

The fact that ITV were there and filmed it rather undermines the assertion that no journalists are allowed in, no?

I was referring to the ideology of the Gazan government that it was a mother’s duty to raise their children for martyrdom’, and they have stated they need the blood of Palestinians spilled to encourage anger and provided links.

Are you disputing that it’s true?

Do you think it has no relevance to the high civilian death toll?

I can’t think of any other war in recent memory in these circumstances where a state has invaded a neighbouring state, horrifically murdered and raped over a thousand civilians, including babies and children, taken hundreds of hostages, including babies and children, FILMED IT ALL FOR SOCIAL MEDIA, then said we want as much blood of our men, women and children spilled as possible to instill anger and incite a revolution to defeat the state we just invaded? Can you?

As I said logic should be applied.

Maybe even @Daftasabroom has realised that calling for all “Israelis” to leave is antisemitic…

And how does this proposed policy apply to Israeli Arabs? Druze? Ethiopian Jews, Jews who were ethnically cleansed from Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan etc? Do you realise that 52% of population of Israel are of black or Middle Eastern descent?