Has enough been done to tackle incitement to genocide?

[Scirocco]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cze5w2wd4x0o

No just gibberish unless it can be backed up with examples tbh

Lalaloveya doesn't want a Jewish state. And I doubt itoosurvive does either after their spiel about how Hamas aren't actually antisemitic and have nothing against Jews actually but are simply defending themselves against those nasty zionists and their awful supporters who often happen to be Jews. Posts which are still up despite defending Hamas being fucking illegal but @mnhq have made it very clear they don't give a shit about antisemitism.

I don’t disagree with much of that. My point of disagreement would be that it is impossible for Israel to target Hamas without any of the "innocent population" getting hurt or even killed, terrible as that conclusion may be, when Hamas embed themselves (and imprison the abducted hostages) in, or in tunnels beneath, residential blocks, mosques, hospitals etc. I don’t see how, given that situation, identification and clinical targeting of the murderers and rapists and their leaders and supporters, without anyone else getting hurt, was ever possible.

I don’t support Israeli actions on the West Bank, but in Gaza ordinary civilians have not been the primary targets. They have suffered terribly, but this was anticipated, and has been welcomed, by Hamas leaders who are on record as saying so because they think it will increase international sympathy for their cause.

Hamas and Hezbollah, on the other hand, deliberately target civilian areas in Israel with their rockets. It is only thanks to Israel's superior air defences that not many civilians have been killed. Ironically, this means Israel gets far less sympathy.

Why are you telling me this? Tag them I have no idea what their views are but at least tag them so they have an opportunity to respond they may not see this otherwise

Why are you telling me this?

Um... because you asked? Sorry didn't realise I'm not allowed to answer a question on an open forum.

Edit: quoted the wrong post.

Capability existed to minimise civilian casualties, @Miffylou . For example, by not shooting children or civilian healthcare professionals; by using the targeted military technologies to carry out precise strikes; by not intentionally targeting essential infrastructure; by not preventing the departure of civilians via the Rafah crossing; etc.

Civilians die in wars. This is an inescapable reality of combat, particularly in urban areas. When I am saying this, I am talking about the deaths of people I care about. I have watched people I care about die in combat and disaster zones, I have family members who have given their lives in wartime, I have treated casualties while under direct risk myself. I am aware that being a non-combatant in a conflict zone is a high risk thing. There is, however, an internationally agreed and recognised expectation that certain processes should be respected in order to minimise civilian casualties. Instead, what we are seeing is politicians, military leaders and media figures calling for genocide.

I think the suggestion is that if you're going to accuse people of what is actually a pretty serious (and potentially criminal) offence, you should probably @ them so they have an opportunity to respond or at least be aware that they've been accused of this.

Ok but you have accused posters of something so maybe tag them so they can respond. I have no idea whether what you have said is true you've named posters without quoting them so it is still quite vague.

We will just have to disagree on this. No doubt Israel could have done things better, but I have never heard of any other war where civilians received notice to leave particular areas or buildings before they were targeted.

The actions of Hamas nearly a year ago precipitated all this death and misery. What do you suppose they thought Israel's reaction to their murderous rampage and abductions would be?

Personally, I think this was probably the response (or along same lines) that they anticipated. They chose to sentence people in Gaza to death.

I ask the questions because they go to the root of the problem. Israel is surrounded by definitely or historically hostile countries. Many of them would prefer that it did not exist. The declared and often repeated aim of Hamas is to wipe Israel off the map.

Can you please stop asking posters to do this and perhaps RTFT? Maybe start here: Yes the last few pages of this thread are pretty shocking. Clearly for some Palestinian lives are of absolutely no value and work your way back.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5152005-has-enough-been-done-to-tackle-incitement-to-genocide?reply=138016060&utmcampaign=reply&utmmedium=share @Lalaloveya (also in one of the deleted posts IIRC)

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5152005-has-enough-been-done-to-tackle-incitement-to-genocide?reply=138014614&utmcampaign=reply&utmmedium=share
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5152005-has-enough-been-done-to-tackle-incitement-to-genocide?reply=138019064&utmcampaign=reply&utmmedium=share @Itoosurvive

Is that good enough for you?

I agree. So how come right from the start nearly all the hundreds of thousands of marchers calling for "ceasefire!" were not calling for Hamas to be overthrown? Or for the abducted hostages to be released immediately? Because all I saw and heard were calls for Israel to stop its fight back.

Gosh. What a sickening comment.

@Miffylou You call it sickening, I call it the truth.

There's no need to be so condescending.

This doesn't prove your point though does it. We'll have to agree to disagree.

You are happy, then, to justify the rape, murder and abduction of civilians.

Yup. We wouldn't see them defending Palestinians denying Israelis the right to self determination, stealing their homes and resources, abducting and torturing them, using them as human shields, denying them healthcare, restricting their movement, their education, their water, making disgusting genocidal statements etc because they are scared. Bring up all of these human rights violations and you get a shrug and told that Israelis are scared. You might at a push get a wet its a shame about Palestinian suffering but Israelis are scared. Not any acknowledgement about how living through all of this for decades at the hands of Israel must feel for Palestinians, how terrified they must be day in day out at the actual reality of their lives. Israel can do as they please because they are scared and Palestinians well it's a pity but....

Sorry if I sounded condescending but you seemed to be unaware of past attempts at establishing a two-state solution. You said "If Israel had wanted a two state solution at any point we'd have had one by now", which was untrue. So what I said did prove my point.

No you recall wrongly regarding the deleted post. If you didnt understand my post I'm in favour of separation of church and state in every country which is not a controversial position to have in most parts of the world.

@Miffylou I'm saying that what happened on October 7th does not justify what Israel did before or after.

OK, what do you think Israel's response should have been, then?

@Dulra
I have no idea whether what you have said is true you've named posters without quoting them so it is still quite vague.

I've lost count of the number of posters on these threads tying themselves in knots to claim Hamas' stated aim isn't to kill Jews, just because it wasn't enshrined with a ballpoint pen in their second charter or something.

I could understand if some posters miss these if they rarely dip into these threads, but how odd that they've passed you by. Anyway, here's one from just yesterday on this thread at 12:46 - maybe you were having lunch at the time?

The most recent Hamas charter states that its aim is to dismantle the Zionist state, as is Iran's. Their grievance is not with Jews, per se. Had Israel been colonised by Mormons they would probably hate the Mormons of Israel, instead of the Jews. Iran and Hamas couldn't care less about Jews outside Israel, unless of course those Jews are fervent supporters of the state and facilitators of its actions.

The above is terrorist-excusing (to put it mildly) bollocks.

And we've now got @lionlass framing Hamas as 'the resistance'.