This is the reality of what Israel is doing (part 4)

[Eyesopenwideawake]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/09/israel-gaza-hamas-hospitals/

I see the old thread is sadly almost full. I wonder how many of these I will start? 😢

If you don't udnerstand why then, respectfully, you need to read a bit more about Israeli politics and society.

First this violence really only started around the time of the 2nd intifada. There were settlemetns before then but it wasn't anarchy like this. However, most people in Israel are not affected by it so just go with the daily lives. It's true, many people are not particularly interested either. The second intifada, 7/10 have all created an atmosphere where no one really wants to take the part of the Palestinians given what has happened other than some on the left and, of course, Arab Israelis. Otherwise, Israelis now are not interested in the WB and the injustices happening - Gaza and now the North are what is dominating the news.

What has happened which is worse is that Ben Gvir controls the police. He has completely taken it over and got rid of the more professional senior police officers and replaced them with yes-men and political appointees. He has told them to handle extremist settlers with kid gloves, yet uses the full force of the police (and then some) against protesters.

There is talk now of a 3rd intifada and it's basically only the PA which is stopping this happening. It potentially could all blow up (plus the Temple Mount issues which aren't helping)

There certainly is. Maybe you should take this up with one of the most prolific posters on this board who only yesterday stated “I believe Israel citizens last week or week before where throwing Palestinians off roofs. They’ve also been executing Palestinians.”

However, most people in Israel are not affected by it so just go with the daily lives. It's true, many people are not particularly interested either.
This is the point I was trying to make. Many in the population are indifferent to it. It is similar to the thoughts and prayers you hear in the States when there's been a mass shooting, no action to prevent it just more thoughts and prayers.

The apathy means it is allowed to continue but it is a stain on the reputation of Israel. As the saying goes for all the evils in the world apathy is the most dangerous. This is why I find people's words about being disgusted by it pretty meaningless.

@StupidFarang

Fair point you just made (sorry I can't quote a quote on the app) about recognition of settler violence and that it doesn't affect most Israelis so they just get on with their lives.

I think where posters like me get frustrated is the lack of the connection made between the apartheid treatment of Palestinians in the WB (I.e. "yes well we don't condone that") and the seeming disregard that it has any knock on effect wrt Gaza.

The two are interlinked, but I find on this board that (generalisation alert) many if not most pro-Israel supporters completely disregard that.

E.g. "yes that's all terrible", and then just focus on Palestinian extremism, as if Israeli extremism is irrelevant.

I didn't see that post at the time, and have only just seen it now you've referenced it. I'm also not a moderator, so if you have concerns about a post breaching guidelines you'd need to flag to someone who is if you want it reviewed. Alternatively, you could ask the poster directly to explain their meaning. I'm happy to PM someone to discuss, as I think it's important to be clear that not all Israelis support the IDF and government in these acts, just as not all Palestinians support the terrorists responsible for 7/10 and not all Lebanese people support the terrorists responsible for the rocket attacks in the north of Israel. I have friends in and from Israel as well as in and from Palestine (and Lebanon), and worry about all of them. None of them are terrorists or would throw people (living or dead) off buildings.

You could always read the 8 pages quoting genocidal rhetoric some of which included dehumanisation submitted to the ICJ by South Africa earlier this year?

There is a Hamas thread for their war crimes.
This is not a general war crime thread, this is a thread focussed on what Israel is doing.
The balance is on the board.

Now let's look at what Israel's adversaries in this conflict are doing to bodies shall we? What state do you think Hadar Goldin's and Shaul Oron's bodies are in? What happened to Shani Louk's body? Was that not dehumanising?

No. You cannot dehumanise a dead human body. Abuse of a dead body is called corpse desecration not dehumanisation. These are two very different things and you are mis-using dehumanisation to describe corpse desecration.

It is dehumanisation of an ethnic group that then leads to all sorts of war crimes, including desecration of corpses and graves.

It’s not one sided bashing, there is an equal Hamas thread concurrently running with this thread. In fact, on the Israeli hostages thread posters were told to start a different thread about Palestinian detainees for the same reason.

This reason is that any time a single thread was policed to be “balanced” it descended into bun fights and polarisation. Keeping these in separate threads is what was agreed on.

It is kind of rude because the independent fact checking and bias monitor has found Al Jazeera to be as credible as say BBC or SkyNews or CNN.

Your assertion that they can’t be credible because of Qatar funding seems like an anti-Arab bias on your part.

The post I was referring to with the list of people has since been deleted. As I've said numerous times to deaf ears I'm not defended the actions of the settlers 🙄

@YoYoYoYo12345

I know you are not defending the settlers, but can you see that dismissing them as "just settlers", completely minimises what is actually happening - thousands of armed settlers terrorising Palestinians off their land, with the complete support of the State of Israel, the IDF and Knesset ministers.

This isn't about some random settlers, this is about policy and, let's be frank, violent apartheid.

The trouble with the insistence on sticking to thread titles is that these threads inevitably become one sided echo chambers.
There are horrors on both sides ( as we all agree) . But .. There is an insistence ( from some posters) that one side is more righteous .
It’s good and right and necessary to speak up for suffering Palestinians but when that means that the role Hamas played in their suffering is downplayed in order to vilify Israel it becomes political rather than humanitarian.

A group that believes it is wrong for a
person, especially a child, to have concern for (other) innocent children who are suffering, is seriously unwell. That’s the nicest term I can use to communicate my thoughts regarding yet another story, which fits the familiar theme.

What kind of civilised society, vilifies those who don’t adhere to the encouraged dehumanisation of others.

I don’t think prescribed dehumanisation is an admirable or moral quality.

It is possible that the school thought they were protecting the girl . ( I’m definitely not defending the government position) I imagine it’s difficult managing the education of children from different backgrounds in these circumstances.
Im not saying it’s correct- of course she should be able to express her anguish over what’s happening. But the reality is that you probably can’t speak openly if you are in a minority in a war situation. It was similar in the north of Ireland in 70’s. You wouldn’t express your views publicly if you were not “among friends “

@Limesodaagain Wouldn't it be great to have nothing to post on this thread but unfortunately that is not the case. I disagree that a thread highlighting the atrocities inflicted on Palestinians is an echo chamber. We are on mumsnet not the BBC we don't need to provide balance, posters come her to keep up with what is happening. It has already been pointed out that there are plenty of threads highlighting what Israeli citizens and hostages are suffering at the hands of Hamas. Have you posted the same text there?

To add to that it must be remembered that Palestinians in Gaza currently don't have a voice. There are no independent observers or independent journalists in Gaza which means it is crucial their stories get told and get traction, they currently have no control over the narrative about what is happening to them.

Ah back to the snarky comments about me. My post was reasoned and measured shame you're not capable of the same.

If you can’t share your concern for an out-group because you fear what will happen to you, then isn’t that prescribed dehumanisation?

Isn’t that the real issue here, and what we should focus on, especially as there have been so many similar instances?

I’m not agreeing with what happened to this little girl . I’m just saying it is possible she was vulnerable in school and teachers were trying to protect her.

As I said shame you have to resort to personal insults

A very good point.

If the people in Gaza were allowed more official channels to amplify their voice and experiences, there would be less need to share their stories in places like this.