Thank you to Ireland, Norway and Spain

[Scirocco]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-69047220

At a time when justice, empathy and integrity seem to be in short supply, a little light in the darkness.

Link to the BBC Live page covering statements announcing that the countries will recognise a Palestinian state on 28th May.

It's not just that though. Polls taken in Gaza and the West Bank before October show high support for armed conflict against Israel and very low support for a 2-state solution.

You can't ignore that, and pretend that if only 2 states existed already there would be peace.

Great news- although I wish it was covered in the main headlines on BBC at 1pm today.

That exact scenario is a real life problem for Gaza right now though. It's not a theoretical future problem, the international laws are being broken right now by their lunatic neighbours. How can we stop Israel voting in these genocidal maniacs going forward?

With respect, this is such a British response.

Yes ‘arguments’ was an understatement by grumpy old woman who claimed that the partition of Ireland was done neatly by the issuance of the act in 1920 and according to her information, there ‘were no arguments about the border’
🤪

I was sarcastically quoting her.

😂

So Jesus was Israeli?

There is also very high support amongst the Israel’s public for the war and armed conflict. Violent settler attacks? Blockading and destroying aid convoys?

Does this mean we should demote Israel to a failed state, invade and start over?

Support by the public for armed conflict isn’t a disqualification from state hood.

Most of today’s nation states were created off the back of armed conflicts supported by the populace.

Why?

Sorry to hear you're disgusted over a few people supporting the Palestinian people, you should probably stay off Mumsnet if you're easily offended

Voter turn out, citizen assemblies, proportional representation, it's a republic everyone is voted in. Have lived in both countries and anecdotedly saw how more engaged in politics people in Ireland are.

At no point has he actually publicly condemned the attack on October 7th

“We oppose harming civilians, all civilians,” added Abbas, who has refrained from condemning the October 7 onslaught itself.

That's from the times of Israel article you sent. The rest of them never say he condemns the massacre, just that Hamas don't represent all Palestinians and that he's upset that Hamas' actions have lead to more pain and loss for Palestinians. That they gave Israel the excuse they've been looking for. He never actually condemned Hamas' actions and the loss of Israeli lives. You might think it's implied, but that's not good enough.

Yes, absolutely agree that governance is the block. No country will ever be completely free of terrorists, but if there was a way to ensure that a future Palestinian government actively cracked down on terrorism - rather than encouraging it - things could progress.

Apologies that reply was meant for @onegrumpyoldwoman

All these posters saying ‘Oh but most Palestinians support armed conflict etc…’

Tell you what- Why not let Israel occupy Britain-let them build a wall, illegal settlements, destroy cities, towns and villages, kill anyone who stands in their way, man, woman, child, non binary, place restrictions on every aspect of our lives and being the kind, tolerant, understanding nation that we are we will all just say ‘Yeah go for it mate.’

Come on- be realistic. Of course the majority will support an armed conflict- they’ve been abused and oppressed for decades.

These two posts ( Connie's and statsfun's ) are both a very good summary of the whole situation.

It was always going to be extremely difficult to find a solution to the oddity that is Palestine - as the founders of the modern state of Israel knew from day 1. The current leaders of both sides are making it even harder. But surely you have to keep trying, and if some countries stick their neck out over the parapet to say this, good for them.

Personally, I never understood how come so many Israelis cannot see that the Palestinians are where they were several decades back: a nation without a place to call their own. That's what these three countries are stating out loud now.

If Hamas - the elected government of Gaza - wants the distribution of Israel and doesn’t agree to a two state solution, it strikes me that the world shouting for a two state solution isn’t exactly a slam dunk. We might all want it and think it’s the way forward but frankly what the rest of the world wants doesn’t matter.

A senior Hamas official said in October that they’d repeated attack Israel until “Israel is annihilated”.
So by recognising the state of Palestine as it is today, does that mean these countries are agreeing with Hamas’ call for the destruction of Israel? Hamas is the elected government of Gaza so saying they have no official legitimacy in Gaza is a stretch.

He did also call for the release of hostages too.

I agree his condemnations of Hamas are not worded strongly, but consider his position. The PA lives with Hamas surrounding it and they have fought each other in the streets. Abbas condemned Hamas privately to world leaders in over 70 calls by the end of October. He can’t do it as strongly in public without Hamas simply killing him and taking over the West Bank - similar to the coup they did in Gaza.

He isn’t sitting safely in a foreign country or even within Israel.

It is fair to say PA leaders condemnation has been weak, but not fair imho to say they have not condemned Hamas attack at all.

Israeli support for the 2-state solution was previously much higher than Palestinian support. It's plummeted since October 7th.

My interpretation is that Israeli resistance to a 2-state solution is due to security fears which have been proven well-founded.

My subjective impression of Palestinian resistance to a 2-state solution is that they believe that the whole area should belong to them, and are supportive of armed conflict to achieve that. I could be wrong about that, but it's certainly what comes across in speeches and slogans, polls and interviews.

A belief that they should have it all is obviously less conducive to a political solution than a desire for security.

My interpretation is that Israeli resistance to a 2-state solution is due to security fears which have been proven well-founded.

So what do they want? Not only for themselves but also for Gaza and the west bank? The current situation is not working for anyone. They don't view Israel as an occupier but also don't want Palestine recognised as a state. Every situation is viewed through what is best for Israel, which if you are Israeli is understandable, but it wont solve the current situation to see things from just this perspective. I am not trying to be goady just trying to figure out what is the starting point to begin any dialogue and negotiations?

Agreed, it would be a completely different story then of course..

Jesus was a Judean from Galilee.

https://bible-history.com/maps/palestine-nt-times

He was Palestinian.

@Elopelo they’ve been abused and oppressed for decades.

But not by Israel.

It's tricky when you have had a famine imposed on you by absentee British landlords and caused a million dead out of a population of 8 million with another million emigrating to escape the horrors of starvation.The history of the island is bathed in the blood of oppression and colonialism under the British cosh. There's a reason why the Union Flag is called the butcher's apron and a key reason why Ireland has strict neutrality with even some supporting the Germans in WW2 as my enemy’s enemy is my friend.

Israel's Stern Gang in mandated Palestine approached the Nazis in a similar manner, seeing the Nazis as the lesser of 2 evils compared to the British colonizers.

The head of Irgun , later Israeli PM Menachem Begin’s secret codeword, was said to be Michael Collins - a leader of the IRA and he went to the IRA to get practical advice about using terrorism to get the British out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)

https://thebrokenelbow.com/2014/01/03/fascinating-links-between-irgun-and-ira/

Seriously are you having a laugh?

So Israel should win the award for best neighbour ever then…