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Conflict in the Middle East

Thank you to Ireland, Norway and Spain

426 replies

Scirocco · 22/05/2024 08:21

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-69047220

At a time when justice, empathy and integrity seem to be in short supply, a little light in the darkness.

Link to the BBC Live page covering statements announcing that the countries will recognise a Palestinian state on 28th May.

Ireland and Norway to recognise Palestinian state, with Spain to follow - BBC News

Israel's foreign ministry has warned the move will "fuel extremism and instability".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-69047220

OP posts:
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26
1dayatatime · 22/05/2024 12:49

@JohnMajorJohn

"If it doesn't achieve anything, I assume you have no issues with the UK following..."

No objection whatsoever, and by supporting a two state solution the UK is already by default recognising the State of Palestine.

However given that it does nothing to change the reality on the ground I would question what were the motives of whichever Govt was in power for making such an announcement.

Scirocco · 22/05/2024 12:54

EasternStandard · 22/05/2024 12:18

Obviously move as you wish but Ireland still has similar issues outside political declarations

Generally speaking, I seem to get spat at in the street less in Ireland than in England. The direction of travel in the UK is deeply concerning and I have real concerns for the safety of my DC's generation of Muslim children, even in the devolved nations.

OP posts:
ChimneyPot · 22/05/2024 12:55

onegrumpyoldwoman · 22/05/2024 12:24

This seems to counter my information -

"With the passing of the Government of Ireland Act by Westminster on 23 December 1920, the island would be partitioned, with new governments to be formed in Dublin and Belfast to oversee two new jurisdictions."

However, there were no arguments about where the borders of these two entities should be.

The British government passed a law partitioning the island of Ireland and allowing the 26 counties to be independent of Britain.
The Irish government did not agree with this British law and claimed sovereignty over the entire island of Ireland until 1999.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_2_and_3_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution of Ireland - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_2_and_3_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

Sakura7 · 22/05/2024 13:00

@onegrumpyoldwoman By the way, the News Letter is far from an impartial source.

Claims that the majority of IRA funding came from the south (making it sound like they had the backing of government or large swathes of the public), when in reality the main source of funding was bank robberies.

Scirocco · 22/05/2024 13:02

1dayatatime · 22/05/2024 12:27

But the US and UK also support a two state solution and as per @Scirocco post you can't have a two state solution without there being two states.

I really don't see what this announcement achieves in reality.

The UK and US have resisted actually recognising a Palestinian state, though.

They avoid it by talking about being 'willing to recognise a future Palestinian state' at a time when this is agreeable to Israel.

That is not the same as saying "we recognise a Palestinian state".

Recognising something exists is an important step in defining that thing - where its boundaries lie, how it exists in relation to others, etc.

The language of the US and UK has been kicking that can down the road and giving the Israeli government (which includes key figures explicitly opposed to the existence of a Palestinian state) control over any recognition. Now that it's clear the current Israeli government has little to no intention of 'allowing' a Palestinian state, this conciliatory approach is clearly not going to lead to much progress.

OP posts:
DirectionToPerfection · 22/05/2024 13:05

onegrumpyoldwoman · 22/05/2024 12:24

This seems to counter my information -

"With the passing of the Government of Ireland Act by Westminster on 23 December 1920, the island would be partitioned, with new governments to be formed in Dublin and Belfast to oversee two new jurisdictions."

However, there were no arguments about where the borders of these two entities should be.

Your information 😂

If you insist on arguing about Irish history with Irish people, you should really try to inform yourself first.

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 13:06

Sakura7 · 22/05/2024 12:17

And, importantly, the entire Irish population were not regarded as terrorists. Most just wanted peace.

There is a difference between Hamas and the Palestinian people.

The statements from all three countries clearly condemn Hamas and their barbaric attack (for the umpteenth time) but the response from Israel is predictably irrational. The constant gaslighting is very frustrating.

Apparently Israel wants to summon the three ambassadors to watch a video relating to October 7th - why? All three have already strongly condemned it.

Given that Israel have withdrawn their own ambassadors, I sincerely hope ours won't submit themselves this ridiculously disrespectful treatment.

I'm glad the three of them have condemned Hamas and the massacre on October 7th. It's just a shame that Abbas and other Palestinian politicians haven't done so. If Palestine were to become a completely free and independent state today, they'd have done so without condemning Hamas. That's what I take issue with.

IbisDancer · 22/05/2024 13:07

onegrumpyoldwoman · 22/05/2024 12:24

This seems to counter my information -

"With the passing of the Government of Ireland Act by Westminster on 23 December 1920, the island would be partitioned, with new governments to be formed in Dublin and Belfast to oversee two new jurisdictions."

However, there were no arguments about where the borders of these two entities should be.

There were ‘arguments’ about the partition of Ireland in the first place as well as the final border between N. Ireland and Republic of Ireland. Riots, terrorist bombings, protest marches, strongly worded government announcements between all parties. The border was only enforced by the British imposing martial law on N. Ireland the same time they passed the 1920 partition act.

http://aspectsofhistory.com/why-the-partition-of-ireland/

You made a hash of history on another thread too.
No surprise you are here doing the same.

Why the Partition of Ireland? - Aspects of History

The Partition of Ireland sees the centenary in 2021. In this article, renowned historian Charles Townshend asks why was Ireland partitioned?

http://aspectsofhistory.com/why-the-partition-of-ireland/

Liv999 · 22/05/2024 13:10

booksunderthebed · 22/05/2024 12:46

Ok, so I guess the lovely Irish people I heard chanting 'From the River to the sea, Palestine will be free' had NO idea that that refers to making the entire Israel judenrein. Presumably via methods practiced on October 7.

Or less bloodthirsty, Jews should all go back to the countries we came from.

Like Iran. where this can happen. https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-iranian-sentenced-to-death-for-murder-receives-last-minute-stay-of-execution/

We don't actually have anywhere to go. Unlike real colonisers who always have a home country to return to, Israel IS our home country.

Of course Israel is your home country, nobody is disputing that? That's not what this thread is about

statsfun · 22/05/2024 13:11

It could be a good thing. Gaza and the West Bank are currently neither one thing or another. Sort of a state (treated as a state signatory in the ICC panel report) and sort of not (where Hamas are treated as non-state actors in the same report). Ambiguity is never a good thing in law.

But what does it mean to recognise a state when the territory boundaries aren't clear? It's a legal definition, and international laws are generally specific about whether something is within the State's territory or not, so how would that work for areas under dispute like Jerusalem? I guess it's similar to Kashmir - although other countries don't get so involved in that.

And what other actual legal consequences are there to Palestine being recognised as a state - and by who? It was interesting reading the ICC panel report (which I thought was very good and very clear) to see them differentiate between international and non-international armed conflict (and to be clear about why this is both). It doesn't seem that Palestine being a recognised state would have changed that report's conclusions.

Military retaliation against recognised states is obviously still a country's prerogative, and charging foreign nationals for laws broken within the country is normal (although Palestinians breaking the law in Gaza/West Bank should no longer be in Israel's remit until they attacked Israel. But would Israel really be willing to wait until then, after October 7th?).

One downside is the loss of the incentive for Palestinians to engage in peace negotiations. But that isn't going too well anyway.

In the end, everything both sides want is still to be negotiated, and doesn't really come down to statehood.

onegrumpyoldwoman · 22/05/2024 13:16

@IbisDancer You made a hash of history on another thread too.

That's your opinion.

No surprise you are here doing the same.

So if my posts are so inaccurate why are you giving them so much credence?

onegrumpyoldwoman · 22/05/2024 13:19

@statsfun But what does it mean to recognise a state when the territory boundaries aren't clear?

That's what I queried upthread, but got told it wasn't a problem and quoted the history of Ireland/NI at me. 🙄

IbisDancer · 22/05/2024 13:24

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 13:06

I'm glad the three of them have condemned Hamas and the massacre on October 7th. It's just a shame that Abbas and other Palestinian politicians haven't done so. If Palestine were to become a completely free and independent state today, they'd have done so without condemning Hamas. That's what I take issue with.

But they have? The PA have repeatedly condemned Hamas Oct 7th attack. In addition the PA are opposed to Hamas and for years have arrested Hamas members in the West Bank as part of their security cooperation agreement with Israel. I had written a longer post with links to tons of news reports from 2007-2024 about the PA arresting Hamas militants, even getting into gun battles with them. And links to Abbas condemning the Oct 7th attack both in announcements and in read outs of conversations he has had with world leaders. Links to the Palestine UN envoys speeches in which he condemns Hamas dozens of times. But then the website crashed and I don’t have time to do the searches all over again. But please, do a search they have been condemning Hamas, calling for release of the captives and more since 2007.

statsfun · 22/05/2024 13:24

onegrumpyoldwoman · 22/05/2024 13:19

@statsfun But what does it mean to recognise a state when the territory boundaries aren't clear?

That's what I queried upthread, but got told it wasn't a problem and quoted the history of Ireland/NI at me. 🙄

I guess the ambiguity has been navigated in the past and present.

But given how other countries invoke international law so much more in this conflict than others, I suspect that it could be trickier here. I don't know though - so would value insights.

VisitationRights · 22/05/2024 13:27

Disgusting goady thread.

Scirocco · 22/05/2024 13:28

VisitationRights · 22/05/2024 13:27

Disgusting goady thread.

How?

OP posts:
Golden407 · 22/05/2024 13:29

Dulra · 22/05/2024 12:37

Actually I do think it will gain them extra votes
Well the party that brought the motion to the Dáil initially in 2014 was Sinn Fein and there losing points in the polls.

Who will win votes? which of the parties? considering they all support it. I will say again it is insulting to suggest this is only being done to win votes

I mean if you can get 17 million voters to back Brexit based on a pack of lies then anything is possible.
I think the Irish electorate is a lot more engaged politically then many UK voters tbh

What makes you believe the Irish electorate is more engaged?

statsfun · 22/05/2024 13:29

The difficulty for Israel is that although in a separate state Palestinians should be free to choose their government, that's clearly a security problem when the chosen government has a stated aim of destroying Israel and killing its citizens. It's not something a government can let just develop in a neighbouring country until the day international laws are broken. Otherwise you end up with more atrocities like October 7th.

I really don't see a solution.

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 13:32

IbisDancer · 22/05/2024 13:24

But they have? The PA have repeatedly condemned Hamas Oct 7th attack. In addition the PA are opposed to Hamas and for years have arrested Hamas members in the West Bank as part of their security cooperation agreement with Israel. I had written a longer post with links to tons of news reports from 2007-2024 about the PA arresting Hamas militants, even getting into gun battles with them. And links to Abbas condemning the Oct 7th attack both in announcements and in read outs of conversations he has had with world leaders. Links to the Palestine UN envoys speeches in which he condemns Hamas dozens of times. But then the website crashed and I don’t have time to do the searches all over again. But please, do a search they have been condemning Hamas, calling for release of the captives and more since 2007.

When did they condemn the massacre on October 7th?

IbisDancer · 22/05/2024 13:32

That’s because most Palestinians view Abbas and the PA as IDF collaborators helping Israel oppress them. The support for Hamas has grown and grown with every day the IDF continue their massacring destruction of Gaza and murderous raids in the West Bank. This was predicted by military analysts and officers who fought ISIS- that IDF’s harsh bombardment and mass killing of civilians would create thousands more terrorist recruits for Hamas and make defeating Hamas unachievable.

onegrumpyoldwoman · 22/05/2024 13:36

statsfun · 22/05/2024 13:29

The difficulty for Israel is that although in a separate state Palestinians should be free to choose their government, that's clearly a security problem when the chosen government has a stated aim of destroying Israel and killing its citizens. It's not something a government can let just develop in a neighbouring country until the day international laws are broken. Otherwise you end up with more atrocities like October 7th.

I really don't see a solution.

The difficulty for Israel is that although in a separate state Palestinians should be free to choose their government, that's clearly a security problem when the chosen government has a stated aim of destroying Israel and killing its citizens. It's not something a government can let just develop in a neighbouring country until the day international laws are broken. Otherwise you end up with more atrocities like October 7th.

Exactly.

And the Gazan belligerance wasn't because of the restrictions put on Gaza by Israel, it was the reason for them.

EasternStandard · 22/05/2024 13:38

statsfun · 22/05/2024 13:29

The difficulty for Israel is that although in a separate state Palestinians should be free to choose their government, that's clearly a security problem when the chosen government has a stated aim of destroying Israel and killing its citizens. It's not something a government can let just develop in a neighbouring country until the day international laws are broken. Otherwise you end up with more atrocities like October 7th.

I really don't see a solution.

Your posts are thought provoking

On territory no idea, who determines what it would be?

On this post it’s governance that is a major block to statehood

Dulra · 22/05/2024 13:39

IbisDancer · 22/05/2024 13:07

There were ‘arguments’ about the partition of Ireland in the first place as well as the final border between N. Ireland and Republic of Ireland. Riots, terrorist bombings, protest marches, strongly worded government announcements between all parties. The border was only enforced by the British imposing martial law on N. Ireland the same time they passed the 1920 partition act.

http://aspectsofhistory.com/why-the-partition-of-ireland/

You made a hash of history on another thread too.
No surprise you are here doing the same.

There were ‘arguments’ about the partition of Ireland in the first place
Bit of an understatement it led to civil war!

I don't know what any of this has to do with Ireland recognising the state of Palestine? Spain and Norway are as well but you don't seem to be picking apart their history. Good to see a bit of Paddy bashing is alive and well on Mumsnet. I'd expect nothing less

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