How have we come to a state where the police confront someone for being overtly Jewish?

[mids2019]

Just how?

I think at best this inept policing at worst vile anti semitism.

I suppose it is now in the open that central London has become effectively a no go area for Jews given the potential for abuse from hate marchers.

Can't we just stop these marches so Jews can go about their business?

Again, the question was 'what would you do if you were the Palestinian authority.'

You only ever get to choose your own actions, not other people's.

The various Palestinian authorities do have agency. I don't believe that the choices they have made - given the circumstances around them - have been optimal for the wellbeing of most Palestinian people. I'm saying what they could choose to do instead which I think would be most likely to lead to a positive future for Palestinians eventually.

@statsfun your post does seem as if you think the Palestinians should accept the occupation and subjugation for years without any form of retaliation in the hopes that one day they will be treated better. Talking specifically about the occupied territories where they live under constant thread and apartheid. Two different rules for two different sets of people.

When all options are bad, you try to choose the best one.

Hamas tried escalating violence. They are hoping either to create a big enough regional war to destroy Israel or to make things so terrible in Gaza that the West step in.

That isn't the choice I would make.

@statsfun this Is what a previous Israeli PM Ehud Olmert said in a interview in March 2023

“We can’t afford to continue to live under circumstances where there are millions of people without rights which we occupy without giving them the basic elementary rights that they deserve. It’s as simple as day,” he told me. “I feel that we’re coming close to the point where Israel will be perceived as an apartheid country.”

And obviously it isn't a choice between promoting terrorism and 'living in abject conditions without resistance, accepting what Israel throws at them in the hope that Israel will eventually pat them on the head and let them back into their old lands'

There's a fair amount of choice in between, which would include supporting Israeli defence and clamping down on violence whilst negotiating for better living conditions.

I thought that went without saying.

You only ever get to choose your own actions, not other people's.
Yes you are not choosing to do anything in isolation you have to factor in what the other side are doing and likely to do. Terrorism doesn't work it just brings more terror and I strongly believe the only path to peace is through dialogue not the gun. But with dialogue there has to be trust on both sides, both sides have to do things that may go against their better judgement for the greater good but neither side are there yet. There are no leaders, no moderate voices, no trust, no political wing that is ready to negotiate. I can't see either side willing to stop the terror because they have no faith in the other side doing it too.

The various Palestinian authorities do have agency.

I don't agree, they don't have the same agency Israel has, they are governing over occupied territories with a populations movements controlled.

Just look at the latest round of violence where in response to one Israeli teenager being killed (which should be condemned and the murderer held to account) led to Illegal settlers often backed by the IDF attacking atleast 10 Palestinian villages, burning, looting, killing livestock, damaging property, attacking countless Palestinians and even killing. You think the Palestinians should just lie back and accept it? And I'm not ignoring that there are often attacks by Palestinians on settlers and Israelis too.
The violence isn't going to end if one side just stop and its certainly not going to end with never ending land grabs and further settlements which haven't stopped, infact it has drastically escalated over the years and continues to do so even during the war.
The only viable option I see is a two state solution.

This isn't a chicken and egg situation. Peace processes that have worked have meant concessions on both sides. Yes the terrorist attacks needs to stop but that is only one part of it and to suggest Israel has no responsibility in bringing peace is naive. If I was Palestinian I would not trust the Israeli government why would I? Suggesting one side has to stop before the other will is never going to work

This 100%. We always frame the narrative that the Palestinian side reject Israeli’s generous offers of peace. But it works both ways.

One of the recent negotiations to release the hostages broke down because Israel refused to withdraw from Gaza. Israel has a responsibility to act for peace and it needs to withdraw from the West Bank.

If Hamas have to prove they will lay down arms, Israel have to prove the same. They also have to undo some of their expansions and to give Palestinians at least some of their old lands back. Currently the Gaza Strip is the most densely populated place on Earth.

They also need to allow Gaza a proper form of access to the outside world so they function.

In short, if they want to get rid of Hamas they need to get rid of the social and economic conditions that have created Hamas. Because bombing the shit out of Gaza not only is collective punishment and immoral, it will only create a future generation of violent extremism. No young child alive in Gaza today will forget or forgive what Israel has done for a long time. That is not conducive to peace.

There's a fair amount of choice in between, which would include supporting Israeli defence and clamping down on violence whilst negotiating for better living conditions.

Supporting Israeli defence? Come on, support the army that terrorises you, bullies you, controls you, kills your children, controls your movements! Before this can happen the IDF needs to be completely overhauled and a proper peacekeeping force put in its place which are completely independent of the Israeli government and the IDF then and only then might you get to a stage where trust can be developed and real inroads made.

whilst negotiating for better living conditions.
That sentence alone speaks volumes you need to do x,y,z before we'll even begin to improve your living conditions.

You also keeping talking about choices but you describe controlled choices not free choice

I think the Israeli government also needs to wake up to the fact the world is changing as well. I don't think it can count on completely unquestioning support from the US or parts of Europe for much longer (I'm talking about in decades, not years).

There's a fair amount of choice in between, which would include supporting Israeli defence and clamping down on violence whilst negotiating for better living conditions.

I’m afraid you have a lot more faith in Israeli benevolence than I do. They have not proven they have Palestinians interests at heart.

And let’s not forget that it was Israel who declared itself a state and displaced the Palestinians in the first place. There’s a lot of understandable resentment.

Palestinians have lost a lot of dignity. They are unable to even go to their important places of worship without being vetted by the occupying force. Israel needs to recognise their history and make a proper commitment to peace.

Or they can just carry on with their violence until the Palestinians either die, surrender or are sucked into the diaspora, never to be allowed to return. I see no peace for the Palestinians unfortunately because Israel are so much stronger.

It's not all bad news. Israelis in Israel have been demonstrating for a ceasefire. They (both sides) need to throw off their terrible, blood thirsty, hate filled leadership.

You asked what I think is the best choice for the Palestinian authorities to do, in order to get a better life for Palestinians.

'but Israel.. '
'but this is terrible... '

.. doesn't change whether it's the best choice for the Palestinian Authorities to make.

You clearly disagree that this is the right choice for them to make. Not sure what you are proposing would be a better choice. Escalating violence has been a pretty devastating choice.

Let’s hope this happens.

Before this can happen the IDF needs to be completely overhauled and a proper peacekeeping force put in its place which are completely independent of the Israeli government and the IDF then and only then might you get to a stage where trust can be developed and real inroads made.
This was one of my suggestions. What do you think?

You asked what I think is the best choice for the Palestinian authorities to do, in order to get a better life for Palestinians.

One poster asked that the rest of us responded to your suggestions highlighting probable flaws we see. This is a discussion forum not a Q&A.

'but Israel..
Of course but Israel, there are two sides to this.

Before this can happen the IDF needs to be completely overhauled and a proper peacekeeping force put in its place which are completely independent of the Israeli government and the IDF then and only then might you get to a stage where trust can be developed and real inroads made.

@dulra this is a good suggestion. That’s why it’s so disappointing that the UN have been so slow to condemn Israel. In that vein the veto system at the UN needs to be reformed.

Israel tried to escalate violence not so long ago by bombing an ambassy on foreign soil, knowing that Iran would retaliate. They did so Israel, being the "victim" according to the Western World, retaliated back.
Israel did this because they have the support of the USA.
Things are more than terrible in Gaza. Israel is nothing but responsible for this. They bomb. they starve. they deprive civilians of their basic human right. All this is verified over and over again.
Hamas are terrorists; Israel a terrorist state.

Israel tried to escalate violence not so long ago by bombing an ambassy on foreign soil, knowing that Iran would retaliate. They did so Israel, being the "victim" according to the Western World, retaliated back.

Poor, innocent Iran in all of this.

Please counter argue my statement, instead of using sarcasm ( lowest form of wit).
The point I was making is it is against international laws , laws that Israel has signed up to, to bomb an ambassy in a foreign country. Just imagine Iran bombing an Israeli ambassy in any foreign country?. How would Israel react to this? Rhetorical question, by the way.
But as usual, the Israeli government can do no wrong. We are, after all, all antisemitic and/or pro Hamas if we dare to criticise their actions.

Here's Iran bombing a US embassy in December last year. So I can easily imagine Iran bombing embassies.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/08/politics/us-embassy-iraq-attack/index.html

You're missing the point, bombing embassies is wrong irrespective of who is doing the bombings. No one wants to live in a what's good for the goose world gets us no where.

You appear not to have understood my point.
Basically, bombing an embassy is illegal. It doesn't matter who does it.
Why is it so hard to understand?

You're missing the point. Claiming that Israel is 'playing the victim' when it comes to Iran when Iran poses an existential threat to Israel and is funding various terrorist groups to attack Israel is absolutely batshit. Iran being forced to send missiles against Israel because Israel attacked their embassy? The only difference between that Iranian attack on Israel and all the others is that Iran did it in their own name and from their own soil.

There's a war going on in the Middle East and some people seem to think that it is Israel against the Gazans.

We're in a situation where because of this view, people on MN are suggesting we should have sympathy for a Hamas leader. That Israel were 'playing the victim' when it comes to Iran. People are chanting support for the fucking Houthis on the streets of London when their slogan is 'Death to Israel, a curse upon Jews'.

What Israel are doing in Gaza is abhorrent. But we are not in a 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' situation. Iran and their proxies are absolutely not our fucking friends.

You're missing the point. Claiming that Israel is 'playing the victim' when it comes to Iran when Iran poses an existential threat to Israel and is funding various terrorist groups to attack Israel is absolutely batshit. Iran being forced to send missiles against Israel because Israel attacked their embassy?
Still missing the point. Dear me, I really don't know how to explain it to you. Iran has the right to defend itself, as defined by international laws, when they are being directly attacked. An embassy is a sovereign territory.
The only difference between that Iranian attack on Israel and all the others is that Iran did it in their own name and from their own soil.
Read my last sentence and you will understand why this was different.
Disclaimer: I am no fan of Iran. I just do not like double standards and the international laws ignored. Laws are here to protect.

So the US has the right to defend itself when Iran attacked their embassy and people are still wondering why the US provide military support to Israel.

Attacking embassies is wrong. Suggesting that Israel are 'playing the victim' when it comes to Iran attacking them is ridiculous.