Q for British Muslims

[Muthaofcats]

https://henryjacksonsociety.org/2024/04/08/only-one-in-four-british-muslims-believe-hamas-committed-murder-and-rape-in-israel-on-october-7th/

I was really curious (and shocked) to read news reports of the recent research canvassing the views of British Muslims in this country, it covers things like support for Hamas and anti semitism, but also extends to views on women’s roles in British society and subjects like homophobia too.

These views are quite at odds with public sentiment and our law and social policy generally, so I was quite shocked by them and what they mean for social cohesion and education in this country.

I am very conscious of the limitations of any study like this, and also that there is no one ‘Muslim’ identity, but would love to hear from Muslim women on here to see what you made of these reports / the findings ?

Do they broadly reflect your views or that of your community ?

If so, how does that impact on your life day to day and do you see a way that such values can peacefully coexist alongside those who do not share the same view point as you?

I am asking this out of genuine curiosity and in good faith, I am inviting respectful discourse only.

I do not want any hateful or racist language about ANY group in this thread please.

@Muthaofcats let me just ask your question on the British Muslim WhatsApp group that we are all on 😂

surely you see how islamophobic this is?

Muslims, just like any other group are extremely diverse.

the Henry Jackson society is a think tank known for its right wing leanings, its hardly non partisan

this thread is full of islamophobic comments which are making me feel sick to the stomach

Nice little eid present for us

Depressing that so many people are in favour of blasphemy laws.

He sounds horrible.

I'm getting fucking fed up with being told I should have respect for those who believe in a ridiculous made-up invisible sky fairy, whichever bloody one it is.

So we don't draw any pictures of any of the Prophets or Saints. This is not limited to The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), but also Jesus (pbuh), Mary (pbuh) etc. This is to avoid worship of any pictures or statues and focus our worship to God (who is everywhere so cannot be limited to any physical objects). This is fundamental to our faith.

If someone drew a non offensive image of any of the Prophets, it would still be upsetting for Muslims but not as offensive as the horrible cartoons etc. nothing justifies violence either way. I think the important thing here is civil discourse so if anything is found upsetting or offensive by any group, we avoid it out of respect. just as I would also be against any disrespectful images of the late Queen as many hold her in great esteem. freedom of speech doesn't mean we have to upset each other for no reason.

you can disagree with whatever you like. but if you go around being rude and disrespectful to others then you do not belong in civil society because if both sides behaved like you then we would never have peace.

I don't consider it rude or disrespectful to condemn such nonsense. If you do, then it's a you problem, not a me problem. Peace would be easier to achieve when people stop dividing themselves based on a moronic belief in a man-made mythical entity.

@Muthaofcats do you make public statements whenever the EDL, Tommy Robinson, Boris Johnson etc. make racist and offensive statements? If not.. why not?

Obviously, if any number of people-whether they're the British Muslim or General Public respondents-hold some of the more concerning beliefs in the survey, it’s not promising (personally not exactly thrilled to see that only 57% of the general public surveyed believe Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish homeland) but I don’t really think an organisation with a clear and well documented anti-Muslim bias is best placed to carry out and present this kind of research. If the intention is to foster any kind of meaningful dialogue or positive change that is, as opposed to heightening suspicion, division and insecurity. Making biased voices the loudest voices entrenches bias even further on every side.

Of course you won't respond to any further comments, you have no valid argument. Respect is earned, my friend, It's not something that should be given freely, especially in this instance.

29% of Anglicans disagree with same sex marriages/relationships. Not that much of a difference is there?

That's because the poll is not indicative of the views of British Muslims compared to the General Population. Over half the Muslims polled were not born in the UK. And unlike their General Population counterparts, they did not have to meet the "voted in the 2019 election" criteria.

It is trashy right wing shite.

You’re just rude and deliberately provocative. Why would anyone respect you - respect is earned remember … ?

I repeat again, I am not looking for any hatred or racism of any kind. This report eas published in the media across several sources, and rather than take it as fact, I wanted to hear others scrutinise it and give their views on it. I’m not making a public statement, it was a report published, for all to see and not one I’m promoting or backing. I was curious to learn what Muslim people thought about it. Why is asking that question so offensive? Genuinely baffled by that . Why is wanting to allow a space to scrutinise and discuss a report and its findings in any way problematic? Surely if you disagree with the report it’s a helpful space to explain why.

If we can’t even ask these questions or have sensible discussions anymore then are we each just to take the state mandated ‘correct’ way of thinking and speaking and stick to the script? Can’t see any issues with that..:

genuinely wasn’t my intention to offend you by asking the question. I myself said in the OP that I don’t expect there is any one viewpoint, I just was shocked to see the research reported and wanted to hear views from people about it and have found a lot of what people have said very helpful to understand it better. I was asking with the intention of learning something and considering other perspectives, if the desire to do this is problematic in and of itself I genuinely fear for the state of this society.

happy Eid to all those celebrating, I hope you have a wonderful time xx

You'd have been better off posting in a forum for Data Analysts and Scientists, as they would have quite happily told you that the methodology, comparison and interpretation thereof is utter nonsense, rather than in here.

Rape has been used as a weapon of war and during war/conflicts forever. It's always happened, always will. From all sides, including neutrals, 'peacekeepers' and aid workers. Because it's a behaviour of men as a class and anytime there is an opportunity, there will be males who take it. It wouldn't be a surprise to me if a generic question about that would show that female respondents of all types are significantly more likely to say that it happens than male ones - until you start introducing a way for males to 'other' the offending group so they can agree with a side order of NAMALT, they don't like feeling included in that category. But this client doesn't want to hear about people being realistic or think about why sexual violence and the threat of sexual violence is a fact of life for women so that they'd say 'Well, duh, obviously it's going to happen', the client wants Mickey Mouse Data to falsely validate their existing position.

Thanks - I see that re rape as a weapon of war. I guess the nuance is our decision to deny it or accept it. The denial tells us something about the zeitgeist.

So is the consensus that what was reported about these findings re sentiments around Hamas not reflective of the true position in the U.K.?

If we step back from this particular study; the polls from other studies like the Palestinian centre for policy and research do echo the findings that there is majority support for Hamas and October 7th in Gaza and the West Bank, so I was curious if that was the sentiment in the U.K. too, and whether that uk study was an accurate indication of this.

Interestingly, the latest PSR polling shows that whilst support for 7/10 remains; support for Hamas is now declining in Gaza and the West Bank and turning to a move away from armed conflict to a two state solution.

The consensus is that the survey 'findings' are nonsense. It's inherently flawed from start to finish and therefore nothing can be taken from it other than that.

The appropriate take/phrase is 'not worth the paper it's written on', 'garbage', or 'utter fucking bollocks used by people who don't understand data to convince other people who don't understand data (or percentages - or formal logic) whatever it is they want them to believe'.

The odds statistically that an inherently flawed group of surveys with so much interference in selection/self selection/fundamentally bullshit questions/fishing around and pissing about to misrepresents its own results just happens to miraculously accurately portray the true opinions of not just people who responded/were paid in vouchers/samples/etc to respond but of everybody in the UK are so small as to be lower than the odds of winning the Euromillions the first time I play it.

@MuthaofcatsEid Mubarak, and if you'd like to find out more about Islam, just like other faiths and cultures, I think places like Mumsnet can be great places to chat and share experiences.

This particular organisation, their survey and the way things were asked were upsetting, not least because many of us knew how unpleasant the personal attacks we would receive would be, and organisations like this do like to encourage negative public opinion of Muslims in advance of our holidays, just so we don't forget how much they hate us.

But learning, being curious, asking questions - those are very important in Islam! Ask away (maybe in a less hate-filled board though)!

If we step back from this particular study; the polls from other studies like the Palestinian centre for policy and research do echo the findings that there is majority support for Hamas and October 7th in Gaza and the West Bank, so I was curious if that was the sentiment in the U.K. too, and whether that uk study was an accurate indication of this.
I am unsure why you are quoting a survey of people in Palestine and Gaza in relation to a survey of British Muslims? I think this again is the issue, equating 1.8 billion Muslims from all across the world as one homogenous group that think and act the same.

whilst support for 7/10 remains; support for Hamas is now declining in Gaza and the West Bank and turning to a move away from armed conflict to a two state solution

Be realistic. They're asking people who are being shot at/bombs landing on them 'Would you like to stop being shot at?'.

Very helpful, thank you for taking the time to respond.

Thank you :)