Q for British Muslims

[Muthaofcats]

https://henryjacksonsociety.org/2024/04/08/only-one-in-four-british-muslims-believe-hamas-committed-murder-and-rape-in-israel-on-october-7th/

I was really curious (and shocked) to read news reports of the recent research canvassing the views of British Muslims in this country, it covers things like support for Hamas and anti semitism, but also extends to views on women’s roles in British society and subjects like homophobia too.

These views are quite at odds with public sentiment and our law and social policy generally, so I was quite shocked by them and what they mean for social cohesion and education in this country.

I am very conscious of the limitations of any study like this, and also that there is no one ‘Muslim’ identity, but would love to hear from Muslim women on here to see what you made of these reports / the findings ?

Do they broadly reflect your views or that of your community ?

If so, how does that impact on your life day to day and do you see a way that such values can peacefully coexist alongside those who do not share the same view point as you?

I am asking this out of genuine curiosity and in good faith, I am inviting respectful discourse only.

I do not want any hateful or racist language about ANY group in this thread please.

Eid Mubarak! And thank you :) that was exactly what I was hoping for.

I had hoped I had made clear from my OP that I was not looking for any attacks on any one, and that was not the intention of my post at all.

Replies from others, including yours, have helped me to question the timing of the publication of that report as well as any political motivations; so I stand by it being ok for me to be curious and want to discuss this. I also think there is a difference between the discussion around the think tank and their mission, the way the carry out their data gathering and the nature of the substantive data itself. We should be able to distinguish each, and then feel free to dissect and discuss it too.

I think it’s perfectly ok, in fact extremely important, that we as a democratic society continue to discuss and challenge these issues and the ideas that different groups within our society have, to hold each other to account and to help understand each other and differing perspectives.

The difference is whether this is done with a foundation of tolerance and respect for difference and knowing where the line between polite challenge and disagreement and personal attack and hatred sits.

That line is clear to me but I appreciate can blur when tensions are high, and the hares can run on forums like this.

I think if different communities felt more comfortable to have open dialogue, disagreement and opportunities to find points of similarity, we’d all be in a much better position to see the humanity in each other and live together safely.

This is what we risk losing if we immediately jump to it being a personal attack when curious people ask genuine questions

@Muthaofcats out of curiosity, before posting, did you read the poll in full and read a bit about who the Henry Jackson Society are?

Can being Muslim be an identity rather than a religion? In that you do not practise the faith but still define yourself as Muslim?

I am asking as a pp described themselves as not being religious at all, not believing in god etc.
then went on to describe themselves as Muslim.
As in a cultural Muslim?

Like some may describe themselves as Christian, celebrate Christmas and Easter but don’t go to church or put its teachings into practice (is how I would interpret it). I have googled and am none the wiser.

@ScrollingLeaves , you could just as easily add the don’t knows to those who denied that rape and murder occurred. In fact it would be more reasonable to do so because these people are not convinced that it did.

Just like other faiths, people may vary in their depth of belief, practice, etc. and yes, some people may not practise or necessarily believe themselves but still identify with the other aspects like it being a shared background and shared experience with their families.

There sre people who identify as Christian in surveys and who celebrate Christmas and Easter, but who haven't set foot in a church for decades and don't know how the Lord's Prayer goes. The same is the case for all major religions, I think, including Islam.

Yes I actually did - but I found it hard to get a true sense of the political leaning described here from their site alone, as from what I read (not in any great depth admittedly) on their site, I didn’t see anything immediately problematic (so was interested to hear others take on it).

They state their mission is ‘democracy, human rights and freedom’ the focus is on combating extremism, which I don’t see as problematic (personally), their principles certainly seem on the ‘right’ side of politics (in so far as they support capitalism and the military) but I saw that they reference being anti ethnic cleaning and genocide and promote international unity with a focus on liberalism and democracy.

On further reading, only after posts describing them as anti Islam, i can see they’ve got into hot water previously and had to pay libel damages and apologise to a Muslim tv channel so can see why they’ve been described as neo-conservative and anti Islam in their agenda. I expect they’d say they are anti-extremism rather than anti Islam but will continue to read as it’s an interesting distinction.

I have also since read publications they have submitted to parliament on the distinction between anti-Muslim hatred (which they condemn and do not endorse) and a critique on aspects of Islamism (which they would say is necessary in pursuit of freedom of expression and democracy).

It seems they are against hatred and bigotry of Muslim individuals but believe it essential to be free to challenge aspects of a religion or belief system. So that’s their distinction, from what I can gather.

Interested in this too

Because people were questioning the validity or intention of the Henry Jackson poll; and I was curious to understand if people took issue with the agenda of HJ or the findings themselves. I am curious whether the findings do reflect what the majority of U.K. Muslims think (according to HJ) or whether those findings are not an accurate representation of the sentiment in this country.

The findings don’t seem out of alignment with other polls (such as the Palestinian research I referenced) so I was interested to know if what the HJ data was reflecting was a similar sentiment amongst U.K. Muslims when it comes to Hamas and 7/10.

Does that help?

Of course you didn't see anything immediately problematic on their website. They're not going to say they're a far right group who stir up division and anti-muslim sentiment in the UK, are they?🙄

They are very much pro hatred and bigotry towards Muslim individuals. That's why they engineered a survey that stated that one in four British Muslims blah blah. It was deliberate and designed to spread suspicion, fear, hatred and bigotry in Britain.😡

It is important to check things out @Muthaofcats. We are in an election year. A lot of bad faith actors are working overtime spreading their hateful shit all over the place. They're not going to be upfront about it. A lie is half way round the world before the truth ties its shoelaces. You are now culpable in one of those lies, as are the newspapers that didn't do due diligence (or maybe they did, but ran it anyway).

This shite is not good for our democracy or country.😡

@Muthaofcats thank you for the Eid wishes. OP I appreciate your good intentions, but as I am sure you have realised by now this study is effectively a racist dog whistle. This sort of organisations often say things like "we are against islamophobia" or put words like "democracy and peace" in their mission statement to cover themselves while publishing these kind of faux studies which are picked up by the tabloid rags and used to fan the flames of racism which keeps everyone distracted so corrupt politicians can carry on selling our whole country from under us. as long as we are all pointing fingers at each other and calling each other names, they will get away with anything.

like every community, the Muslim community has its fair share of weirdos and deplorables. most people are just carrying on day to day just like every one else. and Muslims come from all corners of the Earth, so it is pretty impossible to generalise culture etc. understandably there are strong feelings re Palestine, as their is among non Muslims in this country too. For a long time there has also been increasing Islamophobia which is exhausting and upsetting.

You are absolutely welcome to ask questions re Islam and Muslims. we now have a Muslim mumsnetters board where you can come and interact with us. I also have an AMA I started a while back on being a practising Muslim , you are welcome there as well.

@ChalkWitch Re being a cultural muslim. tbh its a bit complicated. technically being a Muslim requires as a minimum - faith in One God, faith in the Prophets and as Muhammad (pbuh) as the last Prophet, the Angels and the Day of Resurrection/afterlife. Some people will have a strong faith but not practise or partially practise for a variety of reasons. A lot of people are born Muslim and sort of go with the motions re some prayers etc. without understanding what they believe. Some people may not believe or may not have thought about it and don't practise religous rituals but will have a party for Eid, still have Islamic funerals, eat halal etc. there is also a very wide spectrum of religous opinions/schools of thought on the right way of doing things (and the diversity is accepted as long as central tenants are adhered to) which adds to the complexity. Eg. some Muslims don't eat shellfish, others do.

and in terms of 7/10 @Muthaofcats I can tell you from my circle of friends (Muslims and non muslims), everyone was horrified and then carried on being horrified and increasingly heartbroken as the situation has unfolded.

for those of us who have been following the Middle East conflict for decades, we knew as soon as 7/10 conflict happened, what was going to be the aftermath. Hamas did this knowing what the Israeli response would be. but why? many have been asking questions about the timing and looking at regional and international dynamics that led up to 7/10. for example some Eastern European analysts are of the opinion that Russia had a hand in providing encouragement/funding for 7/10 via their links in Iran. as the Gaza conflict has conveniently taken attention away from Ukraine. these are the conversations happening in my circle.

I agree they’re not going to say that on their own site. Which is precisely why I was inviting the views of others to get a fuller picture !

I am very much in support of scrutinising sources and the things I read; and I hope that all people on ALL sides of this subject are doing the same and rigorously testing and checking their own prejudices as well as any propoganda they might be being fed in the media.

I strongly REJECT that I am culpable for anything because I invite discourse around it and want to understand others perspectives on a topic.

This is where we part ways. I disagree that wanting to understand or even challenge and explore particular ideologies or beliefs is the same as spreading hatred. Quite the opposite. It is intended to understand and humanise those who I might on face value be at odds with on certain issues.

Freedom to challenge and have open public discourse is exactly what is necessary in a democracy.

I’ve also heard it suggested that in terms of timing it may have been to disrupt ongoing normalisation negotiations with Saudi Arabia and after establishing diplomatic relations with the UAE etc, although Russian influence makes a lot of sense.

@TooBigForMyBoots , genuine question because I don’t understand how you’ve come to your conclusion. According to another poster with knowledge of polling the amount of people polled was perfectly adequate to give a very good indication of overall opinion. A very straightforward question was asked ie ‘Do you believe that Hamas murdered and raped Jews on 07/10’? How can the answers to that question be a lie?

yes that appears to be the dominant narrative. however I don't buy it because Israel and the Arab nations, especially Saudi have been chummy under the covers for a long time.
the only country in the middle east that really has a problem with Israel is Iran.

saudi, uae etc. are run by rich, corrupt despots who basically will do anything that lines their pockets. this includes staying on the right side of the US by being friends with Israel. the people of these countries do not share these sentiments so the leaders make a show of being anti Israeli. so the upcoming 'normalisation' was more for show. everyone knew the real deal.

also hamas is small and rudimentary organisation within Palestine being run by bosses that have been living abroad. who is really pulling the strings? it's really easy to give a bunch of young men who are deeply traumatised by their family being killed or dispossessed by IDF/settlers and then channel their anger into acts of unbearable violence. that is not to say the motivations of these unfortunate young men are shared by the real kingpins. therefore their actions have never been actually driven by the motivations of the Palestinians.

You didn't scrutinise this source. You took their website at face value and because the "findings" chimed(?) with you, you didn't check further before reposting that shite here. Unfortunately you have been unwittingly used by the Henry Jackson Society to spread their hate. More people will have read the lie than will have stuck around to see it debunked.

This "survey" does not challenge religion or ideology. It smears British Muslims and spreads suspicion and fear. Just as it was intended.

I’m also trying to understand whether the PP is suggesting that the findings are not accurate ? Or doesn’t like the framing or the timing of the publication?

Why are you suggesting the findings chimed with me?

Why is me asking British Muslims what they think of this study me spreading ‘lies’?

I don’t understand.

Have you RTFT because another poster updated with the selection criteria of the respondents categorised as British Muslims and General Public which sounded pretty dodgy.

and I have scrutinised enough to have read legal press about their libel case as well as their parliamentary statements; so more than just a cursory glance but not enough to have made my mind up yet. It is why I was keen to hear Muslim voices on the topic. Asking the question is not spreading hate, it just isn’t. And I’m curious that you believe it is.

im sorry that a non-Muslim asking the Muslim community a question about a study purporting to represent their opinions on a variety of subjects causes you to feel personally attacked. Do you not believe non Muslim people should be trying to engage in discourse with you? Do you feel we aren’t capable of peaceful and meaningful dialogue if we don’t share the same religious values ?

I am able to understand the nuance between Muslim-hatred and being against elements of islamism and I don’t believe that meaningful debate about the latter and its place in U.K. society means spreading hatred and lies.

You sound like you're projecting a lot here. Some posters have queried about posting a (quite likely skewed) study, right before Eid on the conflict in the middle east board. Where has anyone said non-muslims can't ask Muslims questions? And why are you assuming everyone who has queried this is a Muslim please? If seen some people specify that but not every poster.

This ^^ is why it's shite. Not the timing or the framing. The groups surveyed.

@Lovepeaceunderstanding @Muthaofcats

The survey is poorly designed and therefore cannot be relied upon to give accurate answers.

Their recruitment processes for the survey have already been critiqued earlier.

Their questions posed also appear poorly designed and intended to generate skewed data.

For example:

If you ask a survey question of "Do you think X and Y happened?" then a 'Yes' answer requires a person's response to be based on 'Yes' to both - some people might be confident in saying 'Yes' to X but unsure about 'Y' and therefore respond 'Don't Know' or even 'No' on the basis that they don't feel they can say 'Yes' to both. It would be a better design to have separate questions about X and Y if the survey is genuinely intended to capture views about both.

There are questions asking people if they support Israel or Hamas. Where's Gaza or Palestine in that question? Respondents are being asked to pick a side, but this is not a question that's going to pick up people's accurate views on Gaza. It's important to remember that a fair chunk of people responding to surveys a) don't read the questions properly, and b) will sometimes answer what they think the question should be, rather than what the question actually is. A respondent might, for example, utterly despise the actions of Hamas but, in the absence of any boxes to check for being upset about what's happening in Gaza, think the Hamas option must be the option the survey designer wants them to select for that question.

Many of the questions are too vague and open to interpretation, especially when considering that the survey was not being carried out in many respondents' first language. As above, people then tend to answer the question they think should be asked, rather than the one in front of them.

Part of the teaching component of my work involves teaching critical appraisal and study design. If someone brought a survey design like this to me as a serious consideration for a research project or a report like that to see if it should be submitted for publication, I would send them away to start again. It's just rubbish. There's pretty much nothing positive about the survey design or published report at all.

Chimed is the wrong word.

The findings echoed with your previous knowledge. It confirmed a bias. That's what it was engineered to do.

The survey is a lie. Most decent media outlets did their due diligence and saw it was shite. It was designed to be shared across SM and that's what you did. You spread their lie @Muthaofcats, albeit unwittingly.

I in no way feel personally attacked. I'm not a Muslim so you might not have been referring to me in that.

Great analysis @Scirocco I thought the suggestive language e.g. 'only x% of British Muslims think...' was also dubious. The frequent use of the word 'only' suggests an opinion and a desire for the reader to think a certain way. I'm not, unlike you, familiar with survey techniques, but I'd expect a credible survey to use neutral, objective language.