Q for British Muslims

[Muthaofcats]

https://henryjacksonsociety.org/2024/04/08/only-one-in-four-british-muslims-believe-hamas-committed-murder-and-rape-in-israel-on-october-7th/

I was really curious (and shocked) to read news reports of the recent research canvassing the views of British Muslims in this country, it covers things like support for Hamas and anti semitism, but also extends to views on women’s roles in British society and subjects like homophobia too.

These views are quite at odds with public sentiment and our law and social policy generally, so I was quite shocked by them and what they mean for social cohesion and education in this country.

I am very conscious of the limitations of any study like this, and also that there is no one ‘Muslim’ identity, but would love to hear from Muslim women on here to see what you made of these reports / the findings ?

Do they broadly reflect your views or that of your community ?

If so, how does that impact on your life day to day and do you see a way that such values can peacefully coexist alongside those who do not share the same view point as you?

I am asking this out of genuine curiosity and in good faith, I am inviting respectful discourse only.

I do not want any hateful or racist language about ANY group in this thread please.

This doesn’t tell you the whole story tho. I am living in a MENA country and it is overwhelming how much religion is fused into everyday life. You cannot put other religious displays in public, for one, nor teach anything about any other religion. Our school had a break for Easter, but they had to call it ‘Western Holiday’ lol they couldn’t even bring themselves to mention Easter (but they did take the day off 🤭). Oh but we can celebrate Ramadan and Eid in schools, no problem ….

The problem with this logic is it's never fairly applied to all ideas and is used a lot to defend Islamophobia. Many people have done disgustingly awful driven by their Christianity but they're more often judged as individuals.

Also not sure how anyone can be shocked by this very obvious insight

Here is a link to the questions and %
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5db0ca668552dd5ab1168a91/t/6611ab3c5db1a05209fea739/1712433981021/Henry+Jackson+Society+tables.xlsx

@Bridgetta well of course, if you are in a MENA country you'll be celebrating Ramadan and Eid in school, it's a major holiday! And vice versa for Muslims (or any other religion) in the UK who get easter but not Eid.

Most MENA countries I visit do christmas displays now (I think even Saudi allow Xmas trees these days) and hotels etc will often do some bits for Easter, even if it's to flog kinder eggs. Mileage varies by country but of course religion is baked into the cultural and family life of the country, just like the C of E is here. The extent usually varies by family and individual.

I don't think you can live in MENA and complain they don't do Christian holidays or give you a day off.

Hang on what is going on here?

Is anyone giving a survey to other groups of British people asking them what they think on a number of contentious issues?

What about asking (anonymously, just as one example, who wants to ring back the death penalty? Then there are some heinous questions that can’t even be mentioned that would get surprising, nasty, answers.

The problem that progressives like me have with the religion and almost all of the cultures which put it at their heart is not actually about terrorist attacks. It's about the fact that both are profoundly patriarchal and misogynist, with the result that most women born into them do not have full human rights in any meaningful sense.

Over and over again, Western societies have prioritised a perverse version of religious freedom over women's actual freedoms - of movement, marriage, bodily integrity in the case of cultures which practice FGM, etc etc.

It's absolutely shameful. The arguments about 'encouraging change from within' and 'not looking through a Western lens' would never have been rolled out if we were talking about one race's treatment of another race, for example. But it's women, so 🤷

@ScrollingLeaves maybe it's like the crash diet the week before going on holiday - gotta cram in as much Islamophobia as possible before Eid comes and people see Muslims celebrating a holiday and just looking like the normal people we are rather than the Big Scary Other.

well of course, if you are in a MENA country you'll be celebrating Ramadan and Eid in school, it's a major holiday! And vice versa for Muslims (or any other religion) in the UK who get easter but not Eid

The kids in many of these schools will not even be Muslim. They cannot openly celebrate their holidays in school nor can it be mentioned in passing in class. Making it more ridiculous is that this particular school I mention is supposed to be a British school and you can’t even talk about it’s major holidays!!!

And you’ll notice that Christmas displays might be there but they’ll usually not allow the wording ‘Christmas’ anywhere nor will sell things related to Jesus.

It should be noted particularly in Saudi that the service sector is very much Hindu or Christian and they are not allowed public expression of their faith.

(to be clear, I’m not from a religious background. But to say there is separation of church and state really … doesn’t match reality)

The sample size was double for British public and the sampling method for each group was different. The top level figures I have inserted the % that they got from the British public to go along with the top level statements the OP linked to:

46% of British Muslims and 27% of British public say Jews have too much power over UK government policy, with 47% British Muslims and 29% British Public thinking the same for US foreign policy.

“British Muslims are more likely to have a positive than a negative view of Hamas, a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK.” Technically, they are more likely to have a neutral view, not a positive view. The poll results were for British Muslims 29% very positive or quite positive, 32% neither positive nor negative, 25% quite negative or very negative and don’t 15% know/never heard. For British public was 8% very positive or quite positive, 17% neither positive nor negative, quite or very negative 59% and 15% don’t know/never heard of.

44% of British Muslims and 26% of British public would back the removal of an MP if they took a different stance on Israel/Palestine to them.

52% of British Muslims and 16% of British public want to make it illegal to show a picture of the Muslim Prophet Mohammed.

32% of British Muslims and 9% of British public favour the implementation of Sharia Law, 32% British Muslims and 12% British public the declaration of Islam as national religion.

Women taking a more traditional role in society: Very or Somewhat Desirable= British public 33%, British Muslims 40%

Hamas committed murder AND rape on 7 October
24% British Muslims /62% British public say Hamas did
39% British Muslims/8% British public say Hamas did not
38% British Muslims/30% British public say they don’t know

What you say about how it is there does not sound pleasant and it is always interesting to learn of people’s experiences.

But to be clear, isn’t this thread and the questionnaire about how things are in the U.K.?

Here in the U.K. I (Christian) have had a conversation with a Muslim woman about Mary ( mother of Jesus) being sustained through her exhaustion in her labour by a providential fall of figs. I recall some of the best stories I have ever heard about Jesus through Muslim sources. I just think that in spite of cultural barriers between us all, in the U.K., most people ( from the various cultures of all kinds) are not extreme and want to live and let live.

Broadly because the study related to U.K. Muslims support of Hamas and belief they didn’t murder or rape anyone; but of course also covers other topics too. Apologies if this is the wrong place for it - I do think relevant as helps to understand why so many in the U.K. have taken the position that they have on the subject.

I found this about the two sampling methods: River sampling was done for British Muslims and Panel Sampling for the General public. Posting because while I knew it’s better if a poll doesn’t use different methods for different populations, I did not know the difference. Apparently, River is more random, and Panel you can select who you poll using filters.

“River sampling invites respondents to take a survey via online banners, ads, promotions, offers and invitations placed on a variety of websites. Once their attention is caught and they click on a link, they are asked several screening questions and finally routed to a survey based on their answers. Surveyors have no idea who will respond. They don’t know any demographic or psychographic features for their survey takers, and they can’t contact again them upon survey completion.

Panel sampling, on the other hand, involves recruiting members from an affiliate site, where they are asked to register and confirm their interest in taking multiple surveys over an extended period of time. Panel participants are then invited by email to take those surveys based on qualifying demographic and psychographic characteristics. Information on panel participants is kept in a database, which can be vetted for multiple member qualities, including caliber of survey response, length of time on the panel, shopping habits, vacation preferences and innumerable other attributes. Members of the list are easily trackable and can be reached at any point.”

That worries me

Exactly. Most of the recurring points on the thread are valid, and by no means are they mutually exclusive. The HJS are who they are, with the ideology that they have, but the sample size is fine and other surveys of British Muslims have thrown up similar attitudinal findings, despite being commissioned by organisations that are not right wing.

It's a messy, complicated world out there.

The belief that Hamas did not murder and rape could also be linked to the distrust in western media biases and due to being wary of anything that sounds Islamaphobic than tacit support for Hamas as most British Muslims (62%) said Hamas did murder and rape or they don’t know if they did both.

As to why they didn’t believe Hamas murdered or raped anyone, that is common denial of crimes committed by one’s own, and a few reports were not correct.

Every rapist (non Hamas) is someone’s father, brother, son etc and very often they will be defended by members of their family. Likewise, it is evidently difficult for people who sympathise with Israel to believe the IDF are behaving in a disproportionate way, and are in a number of cases clearly committing the crime of murder, and sometimes sexual abuse in the case of detained women.

As I child I saw hundreds of WW11 films filled with British and American soldiers, officers and gentlemen. It turns out not a few of them were rapists, or turned a blind eye on those who were, and some must have been our grandfathers, sadly. We would have all denied the possibility. It does not mean we thought raping was fine. The denial is because it is not fine.

Speaking as a Jewish person, I do find myself doubting early reports of Israel’s war crimes and withholding with a “I don’t know” or “no way they could have” initial reaction because due to antisemtic tropes, I can’t take any reports at face value. I flat out disbelieved some of the reports coming from Gaza initially. All the Israeli officials were denying them, so who do I believe? For some of the bad incidents, the things that are war crimes, it took me a long time and a lot of verification accept some of them definitely had happened. The bar of proof is higher than it is for my nonJewish friends.

I can imagine that British Muslims similar to British Jews might have similar reactions and thought processes because they too can’t really trust the news sources from the start. It’s hard to sift truth out in a conflict that hits close to home and you have both antisemitic and islamaphobic propaganda in the mix.

I missed that. So 62% of British Muslims did admit Hamas murdered and raped, or that they did not know? If so, that is a relatively high number. More than needed to get Brexit, more than needed to get a party into power.

This is why I dislike all religions. I hope that in years to come the world will be much more secular and there won’t be as much conflict.

It’s so heartbreaking what’s going on in the Middle East at the moment, those poor people.

Yes, 24% British Muslims said Hamas did murder and rape, and 38% said they did not know- that is 62% in total.

Yes it’s a bit like the line that we as women all know someone who was raped but no man knows a rapist.
the weird thing about denying the Hamas stuff is they deliberately filmed and broadcast it ? They wanted the world to see it, so not sure why people now deny it

I'm no statistics expert but this sounds like they've filtered only the Muslim responses from the River group (not sure if it specifies exactly what advertising they've decided to use for this) and used that as representative of British Muslims and then I suppose removed the British Muslim respondents from the general public group responses?

Which then sounds like no suprise that a think-tank that is generally anti-islam produces findings which match their usual leanings. I'd be interested to know what the Muslim/ Non-Muslim findings were from the general public group 🤷🏻‍♀️