To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

So he didn't say it this morning then? I did check the BBC news this morning and couldn't find it.

He alleged that his original comments were not correctly reproduced
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-28/ty-article/herzog-blasts-icjs-portrayal-of-his-remarks-says-there-are-innocent-palestinians-in-gaza/0000018d-51cb-dfdc-a5ad-dbffce970000

If he said it then its wrong and he should apologise

It's fairly easy to work out when a thread has been moved from aibu to this section by Mumsnet, due to the variety and quantity of posters. It then quiets down because it is no longer in aibu so not as much traffic

People have condemned Hamas repeatedly on here. You keep repeating that you condemn particular soldiers as though they aren't acting on the orders of the IDF and Israeli government, completely ignoring every question that may make you think of the situation with some nuance. You keep harping on about Hamas as though that's going to stop children in the West Bank being killed. At the end of the day, the 33000 people killed in Gaza have not been killed by Hamas. It's Israel who won't take accountability for their deliberate actions and posters like you keep diminishing their accountability and acting as if Israel have had no choice in the matter.

Good grief I never said it was a conspiracy theory. Posters really do like to make up what's said. 😂🙄

I didn't realise that it was in aibu which makes sense for the early contributions since the middle east threads are pretty quiet lately . I can understand why the threads are quiet forcthe middle East section. The constant twisting of what's said is 🥱😴😩

Round in circles. Show where YOU have condemned Hamas for using children to transport weapons? Where YOU condemned Hamas for their cowardly hiding in tunnels rather than fighting. Where YOU condemned Hamas for not doing the very best for their civilians which they govern, rather than blaming Israelfor all their problems. Where YOU condemned Hamas for not putting their children BEFORE the aim of striking at Israel.

I won't hold my breath though. 🙄

I've condemned both hamas and the idf soldiers that targeted innocent children. I won't engage anymore with someone who hasn't condemned Hamas actually not bothering to put the innocent children first. They won't since they are happy to sacrifice children I'm their aims. It's obvious to most.

A quick 'Oh, haha my bad. Sometimes these boards can make you paranoid' would have done it. There's no need to be so defensive. What you wrote about 'new' names is there for all to see, it doesn't need to be twisted.

I have said I don't support Hamas! I've said they're not good and I don't believe they're aiding the Palestinian people. You know that because you read it.and you're welcome to reread it again if you want to search my posts.
What I won't do is condemn Hamas for the deaths of children caused by Israeli soldiers, because as has been explained to you many many times, this is not being caused by Hamas. How exactly can I condemn Hamas for Israeli soldiers sniping children at long range in the West Bank? You keep suggesting these children are being killed by the IDF somehow because Hamas are "putting them in the way"which is why I asked you what the IDF would do if Israeli children were in the way?

You're still on the "Hamas is making them do this" train instead of condemning Israeli policy towards innocent Palestinian children..which is why I keep asking you (and you keep ignoring) what if cowardly Hamas militants went into Israel and used Israelis as human shields? Or Israeli hostages for their weapon runs? I won't hold my breath for you to answer!

Because of Hamas obviously! 🥴I think it's increasingly obvious that some posters genuinely don't know geography and very little about government of the Palestinian territories. It sounds like they think Palestine = Gaza = Hamas.

You’ve not replied to a previous question of mine. Do you think Israelis are safe with the decisions their government is currently taking? Don’t you think they’re at danger at the moment?

You seem to have overlooked my sentence “Just for existing”.

Do you think Israel has a right to exist? If you do, do you think it has a right to defend itself?

Do you agree that Hamas started the present conflict?

Do you deny that Hamas has fired thousands upon thousands of rockets into Israel?

Do you deny that Hamas is funded and controlled by Iran?

Would you ever accept that Israel is a nation under constant, active threat?

Yes, yes
yes
no
no
yes

I still think Israels actions in Palestine are absolutely abhorent and are an attempt at genocide

Yes. Yes respecting the law
no
no
no. It’s been funded as well in the past by nenthayu
No

do you recognise Palestine and do you recognise the right to live of Palestinians ?
are you happy with the number of kills by Israel since 7-10? And before 7-10?
are you happy for Israel to starve a nation?
do you recognise the right to return to Palestine ?
are you happy with the settlers?
do you think Israel government is protecting its citizens whilst striking 4 countries in the area?

It’s not possible to square your answer about self-defence with a denial that Hamas started this conflict.

On that basis your answer is ‘no, Israel doesn’t have a right to defend itself’, which is basically saying that it has no right to exist.

Hoppinggreen takes a more sensible line. There’s proper argument to be had about how this conflict is prosecuted. But you see Israel as being to blame for attacks on it (presumably including the dozens of thousands of rocket attacks, which have not provoked retaliation) and therefore as inherently wicked.

There’s not a lot of point in going any further.

This conflict didn’t start on 7-10.

to the question does Israel have a right to exist I’ve said yes. So don’t twist my words.

would be keen to know your answers to my questions. But I guess there is not much point.

“This conflict didn’t start on 7-10.”

This. I don’t understand the logic of trying to remove all of the context for why this awful massacre on 7th October happened.

does Israel have the right to flout war conventions it has willingly signed up to? Does Israel have the right to conduct a war any way it sees fit?

Questioning Israel’s actions isn’t denying its right to exist, it’s holding it to account in the same way that any country should be able to be held to account. In fact it’s embracing its existence as a country otherwise those questions wouldn’t be aimed at it, they’d only be aimed at their main allies and financiers and them alone.

This is the crux of it. In its very creation Israel is viewed by some as an illegitimate state. It cannot, in their eyes, live by the founding UN resolution, which immediately prompted threats of attack from the Arab world. Attacks on Israel have happened ever since.

I agree with you on this.

It works both ways as well - the Palestinian history of the Nakba & subsequent massacres and occupation. As well as everything that you mentioned about the threat for Israeli citizens and the constant threat they face.

The only way forward is to recognise the context for both. This absolutely didn’t start on 7th October.

Yes you are absolutely right. Any sovereign state would defend itself. Its not as if the Hamas attack on 7 October came out of the blue either. Hamas, backed by Iran intends to destroy Israel, has been attacking Israel for years & they did this knowing what would happen.

And this post here is exactly why context is needed. Why are Hamas attacking Israel? Why has this been going on for years? What about the decades before Hamas was founded? What’s happening in the West Bank where Hamas has no power?

If you ignore all context - you get stuck in this cycle of violence.

Because Hamas, and those in control in Iran (and the Houthis and some other groups), are driven by murderous antisemitism. Israel wishes to forestall another Holocaust.

That’s why, for example, Israel attacked both Iraq’s and Iran’s nuclear bomb-making programmes. It seems likely that Israel will have to attack Iran’s nuclear programme again at some point.

The context is one of the survival of Israel as the Jewish homeland.

Edited to remove double-post.

“The context is one of the survival of Israel as the Jewish homeland.”

And do the Palestinian people have the same right to survive?

Apparently not 😡