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Conflict in the Middle East

To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

724 replies

measuringmylifeincoffeespoons · 06/04/2024 09:42

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

OP posts:
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Lampy123678 · 12/04/2024 15:27

I don't think anyone's sympathies for Israelis are undermined by explaining context. It's that context that explains why those poor people haven't been rescued after 6 months of military operations. Their rescue isn't being prioritised because, devastatingly, their government is using them as pawns to carry out what they wish to do in Gaza (which doesn't make any sense without context!!)

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 12/04/2024 16:21

Lampy123678 · 12/04/2024 15:27

I don't think anyone's sympathies for Israelis are undermined by explaining context. It's that context that explains why those poor people haven't been rescued after 6 months of military operations. Their rescue isn't being prioritised because, devastatingly, their government is using them as pawns to carry out what they wish to do in Gaza (which doesn't make any sense without context!!)

The context is that Israel was founded after the Holocaust and has been under attack, and its legitimacy denied, ever since its creation. Hamas is committed to the destruction of Jews. Hamas’s sponsor, Iran, is committed to the destruction of Jews.

Israelis do not wish to allow a second Holocaust.

That’s the context.

Lampy123678 · 12/04/2024 16:34

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 12/04/2024 16:21

The context is that Israel was founded after the Holocaust and has been under attack, and its legitimacy denied, ever since its creation. Hamas is committed to the destruction of Jews. Hamas’s sponsor, Iran, is committed to the destruction of Jews.

Israelis do not wish to allow a second Holocaust.

That’s the context.

Well that's very evidently not the entire context is it? As that doesn't explain why they have chosen certain military operations over others or why they aren't doing anywhere near enough to rescue their hostages, or why so many aid workers have been killed or the treatment of Palestinians in the other territories.

Post what you like but don't quote me on page 27 with context that's already been covered already in earlier pages especially if you aren't going to actually address the point made in my post.

Mags48 · 12/04/2024 16:37

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 12/04/2024 16:21

The context is that Israel was founded after the Holocaust and has been under attack, and its legitimacy denied, ever since its creation. Hamas is committed to the destruction of Jews. Hamas’s sponsor, Iran, is committed to the destruction of Jews.

Israelis do not wish to allow a second Holocaust.

That’s the context.

This post here is why context is necessary.

Israel was founded on a land that already had people living there. If the Holocaust is important context to explain why Israel was created, then the Nakba is also necessary to explain what happened to the Palestinians that already lived there. You can’t give context for one side whilst ignoring the other.

The creation of Hamas and the role that Israel had in their original funding is also important for context.

Some extra context for you @WhatsTheUseOfWorrying

Lampy123678 · 12/04/2024 16:54

Mags48 · 12/04/2024 16:37

This post here is why context is necessary.

Israel was founded on a land that already had people living there. If the Holocaust is important context to explain why Israel was created, then the Nakba is also necessary to explain what happened to the Palestinians that already lived there. You can’t give context for one side whilst ignoring the other.

The creation of Hamas and the role that Israel had in their original funding is also important for context.

Some extra context for you @WhatsTheUseOfWorrying

The creation of Hamas and the role that Israel had in their original funding is also important for context
Exactly. Or the Israeli officials who have on record described an extremist Hamas as an "asset" because then they can treat Gaza as a "hostile state"or who have referred to the PA as "diplomatic terrorists" or referred to "the threat of Palestinian peace offensives" etc etc

Surely by now people have to realise this can't simplified to good guys and bad guys.

Limesodaagain · 12/04/2024 16:59

Lampy123678 · 12/04/2024 16:54

The creation of Hamas and the role that Israel had in their original funding is also important for context
Exactly. Or the Israeli officials who have on record described an extremist Hamas as an "asset" because then they can treat Gaza as a "hostile state"or who have referred to the PA as "diplomatic terrorists" or referred to "the threat of Palestinian peace offensives" etc etc

Surely by now people have to realise this can't simplified to good guys and bad guys.

I completely agree with your last sentence. Apologies- I thought you were implying that Israel was the only “ bad guy” here.

Mags48 · 12/04/2024 17:05

Come on now @Limesodaagain No need to be so disingenuous.

Limesodaagain · 12/04/2024 17:06

Mags48 · 12/04/2024 17:05

Come on now @Limesodaagain No need to be so disingenuous.

Really?

Limesodaagain · 12/04/2024 17:07

I absolutely mean what I said . This is very annoying.

I can’t see how I have been disingenuous . Please explain if you can.

Lampy123678 · 12/04/2024 17:11

Limesodaagain · 12/04/2024 16:59

I completely agree with your last sentence. Apologies- I thought you were implying that Israel was the only “ bad guy” here.

No not at all! I've tried to be clear that the actions of Hamas are atrocious but the OP and lots of other posts have focused solely on Hamas which is why I'm trying to highlight the issues on both sides. So many innocent peoples lives are being devastated by both sides, it's heartbreaking. But I do worry that if the Israeli government keep being painted as "good guys" that people will look away again if Hamas are defeated even if people are still suffering.

Limesodaagain · 12/04/2024 17:15

Lampy123678 · 12/04/2024 17:11

No not at all! I've tried to be clear that the actions of Hamas are atrocious but the OP and lots of other posts have focused solely on Hamas which is why I'm trying to highlight the issues on both sides. So many innocent peoples lives are being devastated by both sides, it's heartbreaking. But I do worry that if the Israeli government keep being painted as "good guys" that people will look away again if Hamas are defeated even if people are still suffering.

Edited

Yes - I understand that . It makes sense to me. The whole thing is heartbreaking. I definitely don’t think wouldn’t paint the Israeli government as the good guys . I feel sorrow for the victims on both sides.

silverneedle · 12/04/2024 19:10

DumpsterBaby · 06/04/2024 13:06

What you’re actually saying here is you don’t agree with war, period. Which is a fine position to take, but you may as well state it.

Edit: Sorry I quoted the wrong comment above. I meant to quote WhatsTheUseOfWorrying comment:

This is the crux of it. In its very creation Israel is viewed by some as an illegitimate state. It cannot, in their eyes, live by the founding UN resolution, which immediately prompted threats of attack from the Arab world. Attacks on Israel have happened ever since.

When discussing the Palestine/Israel conflict I often see people raise the point you have made that when in May 1948 the British moved out and Israel declared independence, the surrounding Arab countries and Palestinians themselves went to war against Israel. This is true but it doesn’t give the full picture. After the UN in November 1947 proposed partitioning the area into an Arab and Jewish state the Zionist leadership accepted the UN partition plan although they hoped somehow to expand the borders allotted to the Jewish state. They saw the UN vote on partition as legitimising on the international stage the idea of a Jewish state which had been their dream for the last 70 years. They also knew the Arabs would decline it and ultimately the borders would be decided in a war. The Palestinian Arabs (majority Muslim and some Christian) which were still two thirds of the population by 1947 - and majority owners of the land - and the surrounding Arab states rejected the UN plan and regarded the UN General Assembly vote as an international betrayal.

So after the November 1947 UN partition vote violence and skirmishes flared up again between the Jewish and Arab population. By May 15, 1948, when the British left and Israel declared independence nearly half (300,000) of the total number (750,000) of Palestinian refugees by the end of the Arab-Israeli war had already been forcefully expelled from the land by the Jewish militia. The surrounding Arab countries did as you say go to war with Israel on May 15 1948. What is often omitted is according to Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe, the Arab states sent troops into Palestine not as a reaction to the declaration of the founding of the state of Israel, but in response to Zionist operations that had already begun in February 1948, and in particular in the wake of the well-publicised massacre in the village of Der Yassin near Jerusalem.

The Arab countries help though was not straightforward as although part of them wanted to help they didn’t want to get too involved. Also Jordan who had the strongest army out of all of them at that time were ambivalent as behind the scenes the Jewish leaders had suggested a deal to them that if they didn’t get too heavily involved Israel would give them 20% of the land. This meant although they did send their army their participation was limited. Again according to Ilan Pappe, the Arab states in reality only sent relatively a small contingent of troops - smaller compared to the Jewish forces, and were and far less well equipped or trained.

Returning to why the Arab population did not want partition, it should be remembered that after the First World War the League of Nations acknowledged the right of Middle Eastern countries to self-determination. And indeed surrounding Arab countries such as Egypt and Iraq in subsequent decades - Egypt 1922, Iraq 1932 - achieved this. In 1878 only 5% of the local population were Jewish in what is now roughly the area of Israel, Gaza and West Bank (plus a small bit that is now part of Lebanon). Also they had been a small percentage for centuries in the area. Waves of Jewish immigration began from 1882 onwards due to awful European Christian persecution - Europe bears a lot of responsibility for contributing to the situation by their persecution of their Jewish populations over the centuries culminating in the horrific holocaust - with Jewish immigration especially growing a lot in the 1930s. This grew the Jewish population to about 32% of the area by 1947. There was increased Arab immigration too between 1920 to 1947 but not as rapid and from a much higher base than the Jews being the majority population for centuries.

Ideally the Jewish, Muslim and Christian population would have together formed one independent state. This didn’t happen due to Zionism and the wish of the rapidly growing Jewish population to make the area into a Jewish state. Their wish is not surprising considering the terrible persecution they had suffered for so long. The problem though is Palestine was not a land without people. I can understand why the Arab population didn’t think it was fair to divide the land into two roughly equal areas and wanted to form one independent sovereign state free from British rule. Hindsight shows they probably would have been better to have accepted partition. Israel have always refused to discuss the return of the 750,000 Palestinian refugees ignoring the December 1948 UN resolution for the refugees to be allowed to return.

Israel is now an established nation of 76 years and as such I believe it has the right to exist and is clearly not going anywhere nor should it. Gaza and West Bank Palestinians are also not going anywhere and have the right to become citizens of a sovereign state with all the rights that come with that, be it part of Israel or a newly created second state. At the moment they live either under military occupation in the West Bank with few rights, semi citizens in East Jerusalem or under siege in Gaza - yes Hamas, a violent, extremist organisation who I do not support - contributes significantly to Gazan civilians horrendous situation but Israel’s huge reluctance over the decades to allow Palestinians to form their own separate state plays a significant part too. Netanyahu has even said he purposely allowed Hamas to receive funding from other countries as he believed by strengthening Hamas he kept Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank at loggerheads weakening the chance for a two state solution which Netanyahu and Israelis who support him do not want for various reasons. Even during the 1990’s Oslo peace accords between Israel and PLO, Israel under Rabin were still building settlements in the West Bank.

I so wish that enough Gazans and Israelis get rid of Hamas and Netanyahu’s government and new leaders on both sides can rise up and focus again on creating peace for both Israelis and Palestinians. I will end with this quote:

“Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians have to see each other as fellow human beings entitled to equal respect, rights and protections”. – Ralph Seliger

1dayatatime · 12/04/2024 19:25

@silverneedle

Thank you for a really well written, fact based explanation. In a highly charged topic it is very easy for posters to become emotive and opinions polarised.

Just one point you wrote:

"I so wish that enough Gazans and Israelis get rid of Hamas and Netanyahu’s government and new leaders on both sides can rise up and focus again on creating peace for both Israelis and Palestinians"

Whilst I agree with you on this, the challenge as I see it is that in a democracy Netanyahu can be removed by a vote whereas Hamas are a brutal dictatorship and assuming they are not willing to simply step aside then the only way to remove them is through force. This force causing civilian casualties that Hamas or Israel doesn't care about.

silverneedle · 12/04/2024 19:32

1dayatatime, thank you.

Whilst I agree with you on this, the challenge as I see it is that in a democracy Netanyahu can be removed by a vote whereas Hamas are a brutal dictatorship and assuming they are not willing to simply step aside then the only way to remove them is through force. This force causing civilian casualties that Hamas or Israel doesn't care about.

This is v true and I agree the only way to remove Hamas probably is through force. Thanks for pointing this out. Israel could try to do this without such a high civilian death count as they have done under Netanyahu’s government.

DumpsterBaby · 12/04/2024 20:44

1dayatatime · 12/04/2024 19:25

@silverneedle

Thank you for a really well written, fact based explanation. In a highly charged topic it is very easy for posters to become emotive and opinions polarised.

Just one point you wrote:

"I so wish that enough Gazans and Israelis get rid of Hamas and Netanyahu’s government and new leaders on both sides can rise up and focus again on creating peace for both Israelis and Palestinians"

Whilst I agree with you on this, the challenge as I see it is that in a democracy Netanyahu can be removed by a vote whereas Hamas are a brutal dictatorship and assuming they are not willing to simply step aside then the only way to remove them is through force. This force causing civilian casualties that Hamas or Israel doesn't care about.

Fact based? Deliberately missing out multiple attempts from Israel for a peaceful solution that were refused.

🤔

silverneedle · 12/04/2024 20:52

DumpsterBaby · 12/04/2024 20:44

Fact based? Deliberately missing out multiple attempts from Israel for a peaceful solution that were refused.

🤔

I am unable to write much more tonight, but the common claim that multiple attempts from Israel for a peaceful solution have been refused by the Palestinians over the decades since 1948 don’t actually bear up to scrutiny when more closely examined. (That is not to say have Palestine been perfect in their positions over the years though have been in a far more disadvantaged position than Israel since 1948). I am not able to discuss further tonight but I will explain my reasons for claiming this in more detail next week if time permits.

statsfun · 13/04/2024 10:10

@silverneedle Thanks for this interesting post - it's a perspective I hadn't heard before and I'll look out for your post next week.

statsfun · 13/04/2024 11:24

@silverneedle - just one point. You say "Ideally the Jewish, Muslim and Christian population would have together formed one independent state."

How could this have been successful?

There was already significant sectarian violence between Arabs and Jews, such as the 1929 Hebron massacre.

And the Yazidi genocides in Iraq and Syria have been devastating examples of how single-state Arab-majority governments have oppressed their minorities in the region.

I haven't seen any successful examples of states formed out of what used to be the Ottoman empire which have succeeded with an ethnically diverse population.

statsfun · 13/04/2024 11:35

Actually, not fair to say that there aren't any successful examples. But oppression, genocide, ethnic cleansing and civil war have been more common than not.

Given what was already happening in the Palestinian mandate in the 20s, I can't imagine how a peaceful single state could have been created.

MrsSkylerWhite · 13/04/2024 11:41

**
Well that really is putting it simply and realistically, isn't going to happen. I actually agree that Israel has every right to retaliate and that they have to address the awful atrocities of 7th October, but how they're doing that is unforgivable.
Netanyahu is a monster and it isn't about the release of the hostages for him, it's about the destruction of Palestine.
I cannot bear to think of the genocide that's being perpetrated on Palestinian children. It's horrific.

This.

If it is acceptable, as most agree it is, for Israel to retaliate against Hamas for 7th October attack, why the surprise and consternation that Iran intends to retaliate for Israel’s bombing of its consulate in Damascus. By the same logic, is this not to be expected?

statsfun · 13/04/2024 11:50

MrsSkylerWhite · 13/04/2024 11:41

**
Well that really is putting it simply and realistically, isn't going to happen. I actually agree that Israel has every right to retaliate and that they have to address the awful atrocities of 7th October, but how they're doing that is unforgivable.
Netanyahu is a monster and it isn't about the release of the hostages for him, it's about the destruction of Palestine.
I cannot bear to think of the genocide that's being perpetrated on Palestinian children. It's horrific.

This.

If it is acceptable, as most agree it is, for Israel to retaliate against Hamas for 7th October attack, why the surprise and consternation that Iran intends to retaliate for Israel’s bombing of its consulate in Damascus. By the same logic, is this not to be expected?

I don't really see any surprise or consternation.

Only concern about war possibly escalating from proxy actors to 'patron' countries.

The patron countries have bigger weapons, and more status to protect - so if they engage directly there's a risk of significantly more suffering on both sides.

Ruminate2much · 14/04/2024 14:11

What Hamas did on October 7th was utterly horrific. Those poor hostages.
But, nothing justifies what Israel is doing to Gaza and her innocent inhabitants now. I'm astounded anyone is still supporting Israel. I was very balanced after October 7th. But increasingly shocked by Israel as time has gone on. Genocide is genocide. No justification. No defence.

statsfun · 15/04/2024 08:26

You were very balanced after terrorists entered Israel and raped, tortured and slaughtered 1200 Israelis (mostly civilians, including children) in the worst terrorist atrocity since 9/11? And then celebrated. Well that was very generous of you.

The word genocide is thrown around as a weapon. People saying it repeatedly doesn't make it true.

ConnieCounter · 15/04/2024 08:29

Hard to think of another word for the deliberate starvation and collective punishment of millions of people though 🤔