To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

Source?

People in Gaza may want to get rid of Hamas (who could blame them) and have elections since it’s been 10 years since they could vote. But to think that not wanting Hamas means they support the IDF is the most ridiculous comment I’ve heard today.

I agree

"Tell me you do not understand Palestinian politics without telling me"!

There are PLENTY of anti-Hamas Palestinians out there. For a wide variety of reasons and with a wide variety of backgrounds. They range from "sectarian: loyal to a different group and my party right or wrong!" to "literally an anarchist - you know: the same type of political radical you get in the UK, too".

Absolutely NONE of them "support the IDF" because they believe that this is their path to "freedom". Because, well ... this odd little thing that has existed for quite a while now and has tended to result in Palestinians being killed, maimed, kidnapped, and tortured - you could say "Palestinians are just empiricists like that"!

"Annotation"? "Sublimation"? "Transliteration"?

Or was it something more like "occupancy" again?

One of those fancy words, anyway ... in any case, it was not "liberation"!

It's mental gymnastics, if you believe that the Gazan's support the IDF, then what is happening in terms of plausible genocide can be justified. A person can convince themselves that the assault on Gaza is to rescue/save the Gazan's from Hamas. It's fascinating and should be studied.

I guess the technical term is "denial" but ... yes!

Like Mags I'd love to know what source you are getting that from. A lot of people want to be 'free' so support the army that violently occupies and oppresses them and has done for far longer than Hamas 🤨

How many times do people have to explain "there is a history" is NOT people being rape apologists or Hamas supporters and the more posters like you keep saying that, makes it impossible to have a nuanced discussion. I think rape and sexual violence is abhorrent, I just ALSO care about the sexual violence that has been committed against Palestinian women in the Palestinian territories. It's completely relevant to discuss the history of the area because, when you read between the lines, posters like yourself are still implying that if Israel just defeat Hamas then Palestinian people will be allowed live in liberty and dignity. What posters are pointing out by bringing up context and history is that Israel have a track record of denying Palestinians their freedom and dignity WITHOUT Hamas. Unless the international community starts calling out their wrong and illegal actions of the Israeli state, and holding them to account, the Palestinian people will not be granted their dignity and freedom by Israel even if Hamas is gone.

We KNOW there is a history FGS . But to keep referring to Israel’s offences pre October 7th inevitably suggests that October 7th was a CONSEQUENCE of what happened before rather than a radical and unforgivable upscaling of the situation.

ABC’s post that you have replied to is far more “nuanced” than any of your posts. Maybe re-read it and you will see that .

It's the same old propaganda every time. Everytime an army is brutalising people, someone suggests that actually those people support said army and are grateful they've come to "save them" and the army is only brutalising them because they care.

Just for further clarity- on another thread a poster has described a Palestinian friend of hers returning to her home in Khan Younis to find it not long exists . I wouldn’t reply to that post with “ Yes - but there is a history- Hamas did terrible things to Israelis “ .

1. The poster knows all about October 7th
2. The poster’s friend was not involved in October 7th but her life has been subsequently destroyed.

If the thread is about innocent Palestinian suffering I don’t think it is appropriate to switch to talking about the horrors of October 7th because it suggests the Israeli response is justified .

No it bloody doesn't! You are literally choosing to read it that way. How can you possibly not think discussing the wider conflict in the area is not relevant to the thread? Have you read the title? 🥴 It's been brought up because a high number of posters have minimised Israel's actions as being a CONSEQUENCE of Oct 7. You yourself said that this conflict started on Oct 7. A conflict which has included collective punishment of the civilians in Gaza, so yeah it's bloody relevant for people to bring to history to explain WHY the IDF they are not trying to minimise civilian casualties because some posters are giving the IDF the benefit of the doubt as if these casualties couldn't have been avoided.

Don’t exaggerate- I’ve only seen one poster claim that Gazans support the IDF. Not a typical post by any stretch.

Have you actually read ABC’s post.
It’s much more balanced than you’re implying.

Did you even read the OP? 🥴
The thread was started with the suggestion that Israel are acting this way solely because of Oct 7. Maybe go back and read it. It's very relevant for people to respond to that with examples and questions about Israel acting this way towards Palestinian civilians even in Palestinian territories where there is no Hamas
What exactly are you suggesting? That the whole thread should be people agreeing with the OP and no discussion? That people should be posting that there is no way for the IDF to avoid killing innocent women and children and no be challenged on the facts proving that to be false?
I'd be happy for you to respond to any of the actual points I've made in my posts but don't try to silence debate about the IDFs history against civilians.

@Lampy
“You yourself said that this conflict started on Oct 7. “
This particular conflict ( Israel/ Hamas war) did start on October 7th according to Wikipedia as this is when things escalated so horrifically. “An armed conflict between Israel and Hamas-led Palestinian militant groups[s] has been taking place chiefly in and around the Gaza Strip since 7 October 2023”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_invasion_of_the_Gaza_Strip

Yes I've obviously read it. If you bother to read mine you will see I did not challenge every point of the post. That doesn't mean I can't challenge the notion that anyone who mentions history is a rape apologist and should fuck off.

Hmm . You don’t really like nuance as much as you say you do.

I'm starting to think you don't know what nuanced means....
Did you actually have anything to add to the discussion or are you just here to tell people to stop discussing the complexities of the situation?

I am hoping your post is satire.

Yess , someone is pronoun that can reference one person, the way I did 🤨Are you just going to keep quoting me and being just (wrongly) pedantic or are you going to address the content of any of my posts in relation to crimes against civilians?

Wow. If this is Israel mitigating the impact on civilians I’d hate to see what they would do without these “mitigations”.

I think any IDF crimes against Palestinian civilians are a terrible thing and I feel very sad for the Palestinians.
I can’t imagine why the PP said there would be support for the IDF from Palestinians. You claimed that this “same old propaganda “ happens every time but I’ve never seen it before.
“Did you actually have anything to add to the discussion or are you just here to tell people to stop discussing the complexities of the situation?”
I probably don’t have much to add but I did feel you were misinterpreting the PP you originally criticised

You've never ever seen an invading army's propaganda suggest that they have the support of the civilians they're invading? You've never seen supporters claim that they're over there liberating them? Ok, I have 🤷🏻‍♀️

I feel you're misinterpreting my posts. Maybe in the haste of quoting me and telling me to read others posts and accusing me of having no nuance you aren't bothering to actually read my posts thoroughly.

I have learnt a lot from some very knowledgeable posters on these threads . It is true that I don’t have as much knowledge as many others on here.
I feel I have not been very clear so - to clarify -
I feel that the Israeli response is excessive and is mainly hurting innocent civilians and I am horrified by the thought of the long term effects on Palestinian children who manage to survive.

I am sorry that some posters can’t see that any sympathy they profess for Israeli victims is undermined by their need to spend more time explaining the “ context” for October 7th. The time for academic analysis of context will come later - but at the moment Hamas are still holding hostages …

Many pro Palestinian contributors on here have frequently expressed sympathy for the victims of October 7th and their focus is always on the need to end the suffering of Palestinians now - and the need to secure a peaceful and hopeful future for everyone in the region .

Yes - when this war is over- there needs to be proper accountability for all the wrong doing .