To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

I find it morally abhorrent that anybody could say that one group of people are more deserving of the right to life than another.

@Quatty 100% 👏

No context justifies 7 October. People seem utterly desentised to rhe barbarity of that attack and the celebratory way it was carried out & the immediate response to it.

Who is saying it was justified? Of course it wasn’t.

On a similar note I’ve also seen many videos of people in Israel actively blocking aid going into Gaza at the checkpoint and also celebrating the deaths of civilians. Are the people celebrating so desensitised to suffering of fellow humans?

And what about the Palestinian homeland?

Nobody has expressed any sentiment other than disgust at the actions of Hamas on 7th October on this thread. Nobody has said it was ok or justified
You cant say the same about the actions of Israel, there are apologists and they are on here

Just as many seem desensitized to the suffering of ordinary Palestinians.

@KimberleyClark
@SharonEllis

"No context justifies 7 October. People seem utterly desentised to rhe barbarity of that attack and the celebratory way it was carried out & the immediate response to it."

"Just as many seem desensitized to the suffering of ordinary Palestinians."

This is a really good post that summarises the polarisation of views. The reality is that there are many that are desensitised to or even deny the barbarity of the 7th October attacks. And there are many that are desensitised to or even justify the suffering of ordinary Palestinians.

Whilst such polarised views exist neither can see the conflict from the other side which makes any hope of compromise or peaceful solution that much harder to achieve.

This current conflict was caused by October 7th. There is no “ context” that justifies the terrorism of October 7th. Hamas knew there would be terrible repercussions for innocent Palestinians and still went ahead with the attack on Innocent Israelis.
I don’t support Netanyahu’s ruthless and brutal response but I do get fed up with attempts to “contextualise “ the murder and rape and kidnap of Israelis. It does come across - to me- as an attempt at justifying Hamas’s attack

Equally - There is no “context” that justifies the starvation and deaths of Palestinian children and civilians. But in my view - Hamas is hugely responsible for the suffering on BOTH sides.

Edit. Wrong quote

This conflict didn’t start 7-10

I think this particular conflict did.

I support Israel in this. Every step of Hamas has been dreadful from keeping weapons in hospitals in breach of the law to going into Israel and murdering people. We reap what we sow. Hopefully Hamas will be routed forever and Palestinians embrace democracy and human rights. Like the US and UK I support Israel.

And I think it didn’t. Before 7-10 Gaza people had gone through many wars by Israel. They were under restrictions from Israel and they had settlers in the area. Also in general more Palestinians were killed in 2023 than any other year before 7-10.

Hamas knew that their attack on Oct 7th would precipitate a large scale and catastrophic response and therefore the current conflict is of a different order of magnitude and precipitated by Hamas attack.
Im not justifying the Israeli response. I think it is far too ruthless.

The Israeli response isn't just ruthless though, they're actually illegally. There are some people seem to be saying "Hamas knew the response would be this" but it's unclear if those posters are saying that Hamas knew that the Israeli response would amount to collective punishment and war crimes. I think the context some of us are referring to is that Israel have been acting illegally for decades unchallenged ( even in territories not governed by Hamas) and I don't see how that could be irrelevant to Oct 7.

To be clear, before I'm accused again of supporting Hamas, I'mnot saying "you reap what you sow" but it's interesting that some posters will say that in regards to Hamas but not the IDF.

If it is wrong to say the Israeli response of bombing innocent Palestinians is justified by the context of Oct 7th it is also wrong to say Hamas atrocities are justified by the pre Oct 7th context .

I never said anything justified anything. I was referencing posters who implied Oct 7 justified the Isreali response.

And I didn't reference solely the bombings in Gaza. I've noticed repeatedly on this discussion everytime someone mentions the Israeli actions outside of Gaza no one addresses that.

I was referencing context because there are posters saying "this conflict started on Oct 7" (which is incorrect) and some people were saying "there is no context that can justify ..."Context doesn't justify things, that's not it's purpose and it's not helpful when people keep misinterpreting mentions of context as justification. Interestingly though, there are people using the word context when they want to justify or explain the actions of Israel so perhaps that's why they take it that way. It would also explain why there's no response when people ask them about Israel taking the same actions in areas where there is Hamas.

I am of a similar viewpoint. There does seem to be some Palestinian support for the IDF and a rejection of Hamas by then so I think that is hopeful for the future and a democratic govt. I think there will still be a large population that will need to be Un- radicalised though after the war has ended. Hamas had 7yo's in terrorist training camps so these children will have been through multiple traumas even before the war.

Hamas were getting desperate, especially with the rapprochement between Saudi and Israel. They never expected the Oct 7th attacks to be so successful, but they hoped for a brutal response that would disrupt the talks between the two countries. In that, they succeeded.

Nothing justifies the brutal rape, kidnapping and murder of civilians, including children and workers from other countries, as Hamas carried out, and it's supporters celebrated. Anyone who says they are justified, or 'there is a history' are rape apologists and can fuck right off.

Nothing justifies the massive, disproportionate response by Israel. Yes, hundreds died and Hamas deserved to be hunted down, put on trial and publicly shamed for their crimes. That is how you deal with an ideology; by making it as unglamorous, revulsive and grubby as possible. Rape is widely frowned upon in the Arab world. You don't create martyrs, traumatize an entire generation, destroy entire city sections and shoot people desperate for food.

The Israeli response does not secure their country's peace or destroy their enemies. It might get back a few more hostages, although that has to be balanced against those who died of starvation or bombing. There is a distinct possibility they could go to war against Iran and Lebanon. It's a certainty they have created a new wave of fighters from the Palestinian tribes who survive this.

It's irrational, whatever way you look at it.

I don’t even know where to start with this one. I mean…

“There does seem to be some Palestinian support for the IDF”

@Limelemonx are you joking? Because I can’t believe that somebody actually believes this. What’s your source? The IDF?

There is a lot of support for the IDF from a lot of people in Gaza ...not everyone wants to live under a religious theocracy there. There are a lot of people who just want to be free. And a lot of people who actually are terrorists.