Is Israel on its way to being a "Failed State?"

[TooBigForMyBoots]

Netanyahu is destroying Gaza.

The IDF is committing war crimes.
Netanyahu's government has angered, pissed off and disappointed Israeli citizens.
They have disappointed, pissed off and angered Israel's allies.
They are pissing off neighbour states.
The Israeli government and the IDF have created a broken nation of traumatised people.

Right next door.

I fear that Israel will become a failed state.

Genocide conducted by the government America and Israel

@LemonyTicket I mean the idea that you are calling agreement by one side of the group concerned 'consensus.' It usually means agreement by most of the people concerned about an issue. I'm somewhat blown away by the things you say - that the state was not established by the sword for instance, when there were numerous instances of fighting leading up to its creation. Or that armed paramilitary groups who kidnapped and beat British soldiers, or massacred villages such as Deir Yassin, had no political connection to the drive to create a sovereign state. Anyways, it's always interesting to hear another point of view. I'll try to meditate on the idea that Israel was established as a sovereign state in complete peace and harmony, with everyone agreeing, and that groups like Irgun who later were absorbed into the IDF, were not relevant to the ambition for sovereignty at all.

don't you ever think that this focus on the external enemy and security issues would mean that your children would end up exiled from israel even in the mythical future where hamas, hezbollah , houthis and iran get exterminated in a great show of IDF military might. with a lot of dead palestinians as part of the collateral damage.

yes we could build luxury waterfront apartments in Gaza and the West Bank and some men would earn a lot of money *cough Jared Kushner cough.

But ultimately this is a land grab for the richest. If the Israeli government can treat non Jewish lives so lightly (including the veterans of friendly countries like the UK), then what can the ordinary Israeli expect. This is why cost of living issues rank so lowly in Israeli discourse; there are perhap a few articles on it every month and often if you search it on google, you might get a few articles going years back. While in UK, newspapers dedicate whole sections to 'cost of living crisis'.

Your children have British passports, they can leave. My family in Israel is in the process of leaving. Its not the war. in my BIL's words, you suddenly reach mid 30s to mid 40s and you move to Kiryat Gat where you are isolated from everyone you know but you are still barely floating. This is the reality if you are young and have no capital in Israel. It would only get worse even for those with capital because wealth inequality means that inevitably even those with capital will get priced out. This is much much worse in Israel than even in UK/USA.

If Israel doesn't exist for the young generation of Jewish people, who does it exist for? This focus on eliminating the enemy will not bring the zionist dream to more people, in fact it may even eliminate this dream for many. Perhaps some people think they can get some cheap housing for the next generation out of these invasions and occupation. I doubt it, it will just become boltholes for the overseas jewish diaspora.

But also @LemonyTicket Most countries do get created with bloodshed and fighting. The issue now is reaching a better place, for all concerned. That does mean acknowledging inequalities and responsibilities.

@LemonyTicket I think you should revise your history with India and Pakistan and the huge bloodshed that it caused on both sides. To the extent that both still hold a huge amount of hatred and animosity towards each other. I know a family friend who is Indian and married to a Pakistani. She was refused a visa to go to India on the basis that she had previously travelled to Pakistan and married a Pakistani and had to go through a lengthy process to be able to obtain one despite being Indian.

LOL. Of course not.

Not according to my Israeli family and friends. Aside from the trauma of Oct 7 and the loss of so many of our soldiers, their spirits aren't broken.

They want a new government, and end to Hamas, a return of the hostages, and life to go on.

Would you feel compassion or empathy for a state whose sole mission is your eradication? That's what Hamas wants, and as long as they're in power, the majority of Palestinians will support them.

"They"? So no Israelis fell compassion is that what you're saying?

I expect Israelis to have a sense of self preservation, if the entire world is against them (more than half of americans and brits now want to stop arm sales), then this is a threat to their survival. I would also expect them to think that if Israel can bomb babies and the war veterans of friendly countries like the UK (Daily Mail ran an angry headline and they are definitely not sympathetic to the Palestinian cause), how much would they get away with treating their own people.

No wonder my Israeli family is leaving Israel for the USA after 7 years there. They have no health insurance in the USA, no visa for the non American wife (will apply once there). They have a young baby. Their rental in Israel was rented out to someone who sublet it to 10 people (such is the housing crisis with no Palestinian builders, expanding population and the refugees from the north). Their departure coincided with the two year anniversary of living in their rental. You can put two and two together. They are both educated people with good jobs in Israel but yet this is the only choice they are left with. You have to wonder what happens to the actual poor. I do expect this kind of situation to become more and more common, but for the government to not do anything about it.

I didn't call it that.

You asked if it had been done by happy consensus. I said no, but neither was Pakistan. You've misread what I wrote.

I am quoting below what I posted

Pakistan was not established by happy diplomacy and consensus and there was a lot of fighting - but it was still done by legal and diplomatic means.

I am not sure why you think I do not think there was huge bloodshed. I said it was not established by happy means and there was a lot of fighting.

Genuinely no disrespect intended, but I'm not really understanding your question? Why would my children be exiled?

The picture you are painting of your relatives is not one I am seeing.
Yes housing is expensive here, we rent, but it's swings and roundabouts, other costs are significantly lower. I have two special needs kids, who are actually getting an education, and being looked after and cared for, and healthcare issues for several of my family that we waited years for in the UK were dealt with within months here, under monthly health insurance. We live slightly more simply, but I think that is a positive thing.

I've seen the Jared Kushner comment on here, and I think it is sick, but I think it represents his bizarre view, not general Israeli view - he doesn't speak for us. It's not an opinion I have heard anyone here say in real life.

Are yours the relatives who wanted to milk every shekel out of the government and then move to America? Apologies if I have mixed you up. But if so, they came on Aliya to take advantage, without the genuine intention of staying, again not something I have seen personally before. I don't live in Tel Aviv or Kiryat Gat, it's a totally different demographic to where I am.

The relative who is leaving now is not the same one who wanted to milk every shekel (i do expect that one to leave soon!)..i don't know his initial intention for coming tbh, I imagine it was a mixture of things, finding a Jewish partner being a chief one..

The relative leaving for America is going to america even though his wife doesn't have a visa yet, he has a young baby and no health insurance arranged yet in usa or a viable plan to get it. He has rented for years in Israel and had a good career as did his wife..but its not enough. Its really not enough. And it wouldn't be enough even if he moved further out to kiryat gat. This may be more acute for new olim but I am sure native Israelis are not spared either.

Many Israelis currently leave because it is hard to live in Israel, and its far easier to make ends meets overseas. Many do want to stay but that's not always possible. As with such things, if the government doesn't deal with it, it will get worse..if you rent and your children have special needs, what would happen when they are in their 20s and they are trying to move out to start a family.

My BIL's cousins who are native Israeli could only buy their home with a parental loan and living at home. If it's like that now, how would it be when your children come of age. Bearing in mind my relatives are all healthy and well educated.

The government will continue to get away with doing nothing because the main problem now is the Palestinians. But your ability to live in Israel is bigger than just killing all the Palestinians. Do you feel your kids could pay your rent if it doubled in real terms? Or if there were south African style sanctions against Israel so higher taxes on imported food.

I have Israeli friends who have open social media accounts who regularly post. Having seen the sorts of unspeakable comments and death threats they get daily, there's a reason you're not seeing many of us speak.

Internationally Israel has blotted itself. Its disgusting their total disregard of international law and are committing war crimes - the irony really

The world wide rise in antisemitism shows their actions have had the opposite impact. Israel as a country appears to be stuck in a victim mentality with hyper sensitivity to threat that has probably resulted from generations of trauma.

That comes across rather like 'Well, we let over 6 million of you get murdered and refused your children entry when you desperately tried to get them out in advance, but we turned up in the end once the Russians had got a foothold as we didn't want them taking over - don't you think you should be a bit grateful for that? And now you're being hysterical about other people wanting and openly declaring that they want all that's left of your people dead. Haven't you heard of #BeKind? That'll solve it.'

There are cheaper places to live than where we live, one of my brothers moved somewhere cheaper so he could buy, and he loves where he is. There are housing schemes that help too. Living in an orthodox Jewish community in the UK was prohibitively expensive, we also rented for years and years there. In the UK kosher food prices have gone through the roof, heating costs, Jewish schools costs etc. The issue for my SEN kids would be the same in the UK, except as we are orthodox, we would have fewer choices as we need the community infrastructure, so even less ability to move out to a cheaper area. If your family are not orthodox, we are not comparing like with like.

also - "But your ability to live in Israel is bigger than just killing all the Palestinians" ???

I’m sure you’re posting in good faith but I would politely ask you to reflect on whether you take this approach to other countries, states and conflicts and if not, why not.

For example, do you condemn all Russians for the actions of Putin and the Russian military in the current war on Ukraine? How would you feel about Russia’s invasion if it had been preceded by Ukrainians suddenly rampaging through a border town raping, killing and mutilating civilians? And Ukraine still had many Russian hostages and refused to return them?

I posted upthread that we should be careful when we condemn the people of any country or state and I stand by that. My observation is that people are awfully quick to condemn Israelis, for all kinds of ‘reasons’ - some of which are no doubt sincerely believed. As LemonyTicket has already said, countless generations of antisemites have had ‘reasons’.

I bought an apartment within the eruv in London in 2019, it is currently the same price as a flat of the same size in bat yam. Except that in london you can easily buy it without a 30% deposit and there are a lot more higher paid jobs in london, we bought that flat one year after my dh secured a permanent analyst role at an investment bank.. it is definitely harder in Israel even compared to nw london.. we managed it with 3 years living at home and no parental loan which would be uncommon in Israel..

My MIL is orthodox but her children aren't except for one daughter but she lives in a very non orthodox area in Israel . Even my MIL who has a paid off london house (worth at least 600k) feels she can't afford israel, indeed her neighbour who moved there after selling his london house is struggling there on his British pension. It's tzafat so hardly tel aviv.

How long have you been there. I am talking about the long term, not the short to medium term. My relatives did pretty well there in the short term too, it's the long term that made it non viable. What is the point of a Jewish state if ordinary Jewish people can't afford to live there long term without significant financial hardship. That is something that is surely fundamental.

@EllaDisenchanted
I have two special needs kids, who are actually getting an education, and being looked after and cared for,
You see this is something I really struggle with, you describe a state that is good to it's citizens, you are getting a good education for your special needs children which is great I too have two children with additional needs so know how important that is. But then another arm of that same state is killing children in the west bank and Gaza and imprisoning minors without trial. How do you reconcile that? How do you square that circle? I know I couldn't

@Sussurations I don't have a great view of Russians at the moment because I feel even under a tyrant like Putin they could be doing more but I also see many Russians opposing the current Putin regime and unfortunately paying with their lives. At the recent funeral of Alexei Navalny I saw thousands of Russians risk their lives by coming out to mourn him. I don't see this same opposition in Israel to the atrocities many of us are reeling at. I know Israelis want Netanyahu to go but that is due to corruption and domestic issues not to do with his policy on Gaza.

I posted upthread that we should be careful when we condemn the people of any country or state and I stand by that
I am not condemning Israelis I am pointing out why people are angry with their justifications of what their government is doing in Gaza and the west bank

There is an oblast in the far east of russia which offers a option

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

Don't you need a special method of transportation to facilitate that? Say, a big fucking railway?

An entire forum has been set up on Mumsnet to accommodate those who despise it. Which, of course, they claim is just them being concerned citizens with some peculiar special interest in this conflict over the dozens of other ones.

This.

Yes. 100%.