Is Israel on its way to being a "Failed State?"

[TooBigForMyBoots]

Netanyahu is destroying Gaza.

The IDF is committing war crimes.
Netanyahu's government has angered, pissed off and disappointed Israeli citizens.
They have disappointed, pissed off and angered Israel's allies.
They are pissing off neighbour states.
The Israeli government and the IDF have created a broken nation of traumatised people.

Right next door.

I fear that Israel will become a failed state.

Ah yes we're all here because we despise Israel no other reason whatsoever

Failed state? Not yet. But within a generation or less, yes.

Pariah/rogue state? Yes already. The entire world has turned its back on Isreal now.

Supporters of the corrupt Israeli govt might as well be drunks staring into the road, shouting at traffic or screaming at pigeons at this point. The world has eyes and can see. Just watched Netanyahu smirking as he explained the deaths of the aid workers delivering food to the starving.

Only workable solution is a reasonable 2ss. But that is clearly not the aim for the Israeli govt.

All that intelligence but not an ounce of wisdom to be seen.

Failed state? No. But it is becoming more outcasted by the day. Their allies are increasingly frustrated with them and the protests are growing with each atrocity.

I have family in israel (though the bet is that in a few years, they would all have left). As a Jewish person I want to support Israel. But my conscience doesn't allow me to. I support Israel 's right to defend itself but I cannot condone their killing of innocents.

My DH who grew up orthodox, who grew up singing the hatikvah, who attended Jewish school all his life including years in a chabad primary school, who went on school trips to Israel, who has family in Israel, who was never a supporter of the Palestinians cause. But he donated to Palestine via donating to unicef because he, like me, felt he could no longer condone this.

For him like me, probably our breaking point was seeing our relatives support the IDF's actions while
(a) not serving in the idf despite being israeli citizens and moving back to Israel as single men in their 20s
(b) wanting to squeeze out every shekel out of the israeli government
(c) moving away from Israel/planning to move away from israel once they got their partners as if the whole aliyah project is some sort of sex and shekels incentive scheme for the under 30s. Its not that our relatives are bad people, it's just what the schemes are there for. If you had this scheme in uk people would do the same too just that no government in their right mind would sanction this. I guess its just as Well it's hard to survive in Israel once the benefits end.

And no this is not a religious vs secular thing, the religious gets tons of benefits too like my MIL's settler friend whose house is in some poor Arab's backyard!

Yes these are people we know in real life and then we see the pictures of dead babies on bbc.

We might be zionists but we can also see when people are taking the piss. And no thats not just my relatives. What about the Russians who go there to get a first world passport and then go back? What about the settlers..what about the people who move beyond the green line for real life mcmansions

There are spongers in every country but only in Israel it is seen as some sort of godly ordained mission.
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@LemonyTicket brilliant posts.

Noted.

@Dulra thank you for answering my post. I think you are trying to have it both ways. You acknowledge that Israelis challenge and protest against their government, but you caveat it by saying they aren’t doing it because of Gaza.

I agree that seeing the crowds at Navalny’s funeral was inspiring. How many of those people are there because they are against the war with Ukraine? Or is it that they don’t want to be ruled by a corrupt despot like Putin. To be clear, I think they are perfectly entitled to feel whatever they do feel but can you see the difference between the motives you attribute to the Russians and the Israelis in the two scenarios?

Bear in mind that Russia’s war is a territorial war of agression. Israel’s war is in response to an absolutely appalling attack on civilians.

I am asking you to consider whether you are holding Israelis to standards you do not hold others to. You don’t have to answer to me, I am just asking you to consider it.

I feel that there are many well-meaning posters on here who do not understand the long history of antisemitism and who post in good faith because they find it so hard to see the suffering of people in Gaza (and the West Bank as well). I see it on here, I hear it from my colleagues. I think this kind of well-meaning prejudice is absolutely rife among left-leaning people. If we are not careful we can pick up many antisemitic ideas and run with them. There are plenty of people talking and writing in bad faith who are only too ready to fan the flames of antisemitism. So we should be careful to question our assumptions and our prejudices and to learn, not just lean into the nice feelings we can get from thinking we’re more compassionate than other people.

Why is your poll question completely different from the question in your post title?

Israel has never been safe. It has been under attack, or under serious, credible threat of attack, since the day it was founded. The events of 7 October have certainly increased the awareness of being unsafe, but the state itself - the likelihood of it remaining a unitary state - is almost certainly greater now than it was in the weeks before the October attack. (And Netanyahu, unbelievably, also appears safer than he did in the midst of the judicial reform protests over the summer and into autumn).

As for Israel being a failed state, by your apparent criteria - if so, it would be in good company with the UK, USA, Japan, Russia, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, China, India, Pakistan, Iran, South Africa, Belgium, and France, among others.

This.

If we mess up our one chance to create a Jewish state, we will never get another chance ever again.

Israel is a young country and it needs allies....if they alienate their allies, they would be alone in an increasingly dangerous world.. Even the usa is losing patience. Friends do not kill the army veterans and aid workers of other friends. Friends do not ignore good and sincere counsel.

and as for israeli chutzpah, I find israelis tend to overestimate themselves which isn't a good trait to have.

What are their views on the future?

They will have to live with the return of war weary, shell shocked soldiers, the spectacle of a war crimes trial and a Gaza full of traumatised, bereaved orphans, parents etc. living right next door.

What does life to go on mean in that set of circumstances?

Even if Israel takes all of Gaza by killing every single native Palestinian civilian, they will be watching their back like never before. How can anyone sleep easy knowing they have stolen the land they live on? They have been trying to initiate wars on all fronts in recent months in an attempt to embroil the US/West into chaos so they can say "but look at these Muslim terrorists, they're the bad guys." Throw in the "that/your anti-semitic" comments, and it silences any opposition.
For a people who were once oppressed so horrifically, it's unnerving how they can do it to a people and a land that welcomed them not by choice, but by force. May they reap what they sow.
After the attack on the aid workers, its depressing that Palestinians need to scream 'THEY KILLED WHITE PEOPLE TOO" to get anyone to care.

Do you fear the actions of Netanyahu's government in Gaza could be a threat to your family and way of life in the future?

Israel was attacked on October 7 so she had to react..

Jewish people still face a lot of antisemitism in europe and usa and most places really so they have a healthy fear that is often used to manipulate them. E.g..make aliyah to flee antisemitism and here are some freebies but they also don't tell you the not so nice aspects of living in Israel. Many new olim cannot read their rental contracts or life insurance policies so get taken advantage of. They can find it difficult to find jobs as they are not fluent in the local language. It's is thus very very easy to run out of money in such a situation despite the incentives. Esp with the passing of time. New babies, inflation, covid, war, all these have the potential to jeopardise delicate finances. Its not easy for immigrants anywhere but for most new immigrants with the exception of asylum seekers,.they usually come with a job offer or an offer to study at a university. Olim don't speak the language of the land and are often young people with few savings or young families..

These are the people who are then far more likely to move to the west bank and now I suppose gaza once Jared kushner is done with his building projects.

You ask how they sleep at night. I ask you, if you have two or three children, paying 40% of your income on rent and someone offered you a cheap place to live, would you lose any sleep?

Yes I absolutely would lose sleep, especially if I was god fearing as the Israelis are purportedly. To think I can live a good life and bring my children up to be good humans whilst eating and living on land where Palestinians were slaughtered would do something to my soul. Like you say, maybe the desire to make aliyah and the lure of cheap housing (literally stolen from Palestinians as they go about their lives) from the west where life is hard for the majority of the population, is enough to let all the ugly slide. Almost like going to the supermarket to buy meat, without giving a second thought to the slaughter houses that exist to bring the luxuries that come in such beautiful packaging.

After the attack on the aid workers, its depressing that Palestinians need to scream 'THEY KILLED WHITE PEOPLE TOO" to get anyone to care.

That's not true.

Many WHITE PEOPLE have been assaulted, arrested and murdered accidentally killed by the IDF whilst doing their job. The UN, MSF, RC, multiple journalists and Aid workers have been murdered. Despite providing the IDF with their identities, co-ordinates and paperwork.

It's been going on since the last century.

The situation on the west bank is complicated...there's about 700,000 Jewish people living there I think so it's not as simple as saying " leave the illegal settlements" as these people also often have no where else to go and not a lot of money either.

And in Gaza, I think the IDF are making mistakes, lots of them are reserves but I do not think they are intentionally murdering people. That's just crazy. The British army causes civilian deaths overseas too, sometimes this can't be avoided and with Hamas as the enemy they seem to be putting their civilian population in harms way intentionally to "score" brownie points with the Leftie west....which appears to be working given the scale of the protests against Israel. Why isn't there protests against all the other atrocities happening, especially in the Muslim world?

Israelis are rightfully distrustful of Palestinians...do you know how many terrorist attacks they have made on Israeli territory since 2005? Would you want to live in fear of a terrorist bomber on your bus? Israelis aren't terrorists. If Hamas are taken out and the population de-radicilised, that's the only way for peace. And a democracy established for Palestinians with a moderate and non religious government with UN backing and peacekeeping force placed for the first few years.

Life is harder for israelis than in the west. But the new arrivals get told that life would become better for them if they are in israel..they would have new meaning and purpose and this is their true home.

But the reality of day to day life anywhere is that it can be hard esp if you don't speak the language and don't have much money or income..but it can be difficult for you to move back.

And then someone throws you a lifebelt, you can live in this place. It's a settlement but it's.a short bus ride from Jerusalem. It has a great community, safe streets (within the gated community), kids all play together.

Firstly it's not that cheap, the houses maybe cost the same as in Yorkshire but cheap enough. When you are in that situation you just want to do the best for your family and the alternative is packing everyone up and going back ,which might not be so viable if you and your dh are from different countries and neither of you can agree to which country to move back to..

May they reap what they sow.

What exactly do you mean by this?

40% of israelis are secular. There's a bunch of ultra orthodox Jews in the wb but the idea Israelis are uber religious isn't accurate.

All people live on land where people were slaughtered, including you. They all sleep fine generally.

There are 700k settlers in the wb and the vast majority live in settlements on which no Palestinians previously lived.

I vehemently disagree with west bank settlements but the dramatic licence probably isn't helpful.

They do horrible things , no question, but they're also not murdering a Palestinian every time one moves in.

The reality of Israels actions in the wb is is plenty bad enough, no need to embellish.

It should become a pariah state and I don’t care if @Sussurations or anyone else thinks this shouldn’t be said.

Which other states do you think should be pariah states @AnnieSnap ?

And what's the criteria there?

They have been trying to initiate wars on all fronts in recent months in an attempt to embroil the US/West into chaos so they can say "but look at these Muslim terrorists, they're the bad guys." Throw in the "that/your anti-semitic" comments, and it silences any opposition.

@ThatUsernameIsTaken but this is literally nonsense.

1. Can you say which wars Israel has initiated in recent months?
2. Before Oct 7 Israel was making good diplomatic progress with neighbours and I believe was on the point of normalising relations with Saudi Arabia, which didn’t suit Iran and its proxies at all.
3. Why would Israel, of all the countries in the region, want to ‘embroil the West in chaos’?? Serious question - why?
4. Do you think Islamist terrorists and organisations like Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis are good guys?
5. You’re right, Israel has cleverly silenced all opposition 🙄 I can’t resist an eyeroll - surely you can see that’s a completely preposterous thing to say! Israel faces constant opposition and criticism.

Finally, sense from a Tory. Sir Alan Duncan interviewed by Nivk Ferrari on lbc about 7.30am today.