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Conflict in the Middle East

Is Israel on its way to being a "Failed State?"

345 replies

TooBigForMyBoots · 03/04/2024 01:01

Netanyahu is destroying Gaza.

The IDF is committing war crimes.
Netanyahu's government has angered, pissed off and disappointed Israeli citizens.
They have disappointed, pissed off and angered Israel's allies.
They are pissing off neighbour states.
The Israeli government and the IDF have created a broken nation of traumatised people.

Right next door.

I fear that Israel will become a failed state.Sad

OP posts:
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17
LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 11:03

Watermelonpower · 03/04/2024 09:08

Israel has received hundreds of billions of dollars in American military and economic aid since it was “set up”. Without that aid, and the ongoing political and diplomatic cover the US provides, they wouldn’t have the thriving economy you speak about (which is currently tanking btw). As for equality under law for Israel’s non Jewish citizens, that simply isn’t true unless you have an alternative interpretation of its Nation State law?

its human rights record is actually appalling and it’s long been accused of apartheid by its own human rights institutions as well as international ones. Its recent armed conflict in Gaza is par for the course.

I’m not upset at Israel thriving. I’m upset that it occupies and degrades another group of people and that as time passes it’s seemingly becoming even more violent and racist.

Israel received nothing. Not even support when the pan Arab states invaded it. It built itself through hard work, innovation and the will of it's people to thrive.

It has one of the highest GDPs on earth, and trades with most of the world. The countries you see as giving Israel "aid", benefit hugely from that trade and from countless technology patents and assistance in intelligence, medicine and defence.

Sadly, it lives next door to a bunch of racists with a motto of "kill all the Jews". A motto they unashamedly blast out across the world despite your deeming inability to hear it. And that country (which itself benefits from one of the highest foreign aid rates on earth) sadly chooses to shoot hundreds of thousands of indiscriminate missiles at Israel.

And whilst those missiles are largely forged from water pipes and smuggled valves from an ailing salination plant, they sadly do kill people. Hence Israel needs to spend an enormous amount of money on extremely expensive defence systems to stop - well for want of a less delicate way of putting it - it's citizens being blown to bits every day.

If countries like the US and UK deem it worthwhile to participate in helping with the astronomical cost of that defence, I am truly sorry you find this objectionable. I am sure it would be far less "racist" and much more righteous in your virtuous little world to simply let Hamas kill people.

Watermelonpower · 03/04/2024 11:09

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 11:03

Israel received nothing. Not even support when the pan Arab states invaded it. It built itself through hard work, innovation and the will of it's people to thrive.

It has one of the highest GDPs on earth, and trades with most of the world. The countries you see as giving Israel "aid", benefit hugely from that trade and from countless technology patents and assistance in intelligence, medicine and defence.

Sadly, it lives next door to a bunch of racists with a motto of "kill all the Jews". A motto they unashamedly blast out across the world despite your deeming inability to hear it. And that country (which itself benefits from one of the highest foreign aid rates on earth) sadly chooses to shoot hundreds of thousands of indiscriminate missiles at Israel.

And whilst those missiles are largely forged from water pipes and smuggled valves from an ailing salination plant, they sadly do kill people. Hence Israel needs to spend an enormous amount of money on extremely expensive defence systems to stop - well for want of a less delicate way of putting it - it's citizens being blown to bits every day.

If countries like the US and UK deem it worthwhile to participate in helping with the astronomical cost of that defence, I am truly sorry you find this objectionable. I am sure it would be far less "racist" and much more righteous in your virtuous little world to simply let Hamas kill people.

Sorry - I stopped reading at “Israel received nothing”. That’s enough to show the rest of your post isn’t grounded in reality.

Watermelonpower · 03/04/2024 11:12

You’re right about Israel’s advancements in military technology though. It’s one of the sorry reasons world governments haven’t done more to stop Israel’s barbarism. It helps you to develop the most state of the art military tech when you’ve got a captive population to bomb and experiment your weapons on, isn’t it ?

WatTyler · 03/04/2024 11:14

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Watermelonpower · 03/04/2024 11:17

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Sorry, which part is Hamas propaganda? are you accusing me of being Hamas? I’d better let my husband know if so, it will come as quite a shock to him 🧐

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 11:26

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Hillcrest2022 · 03/04/2024 11:43

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Watermelonpower · 03/04/2024 11:47

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When Jewish terrorists such as the Stern gang and Irgun ethnically cleansed Palestinians and forced the British out, they took over a country with an infrastructure, a legal system and an economy. They expropriated the homes, businesses and land of the population who had previously lived there. Your notion of people building something up from tents in the ground out of nothing but sheer will is fantasy.

and while I’m happy to converse with those of opposing views, I don’t engage with people who make personal attacks and so won’t be engaging further with you. I don’t know if you’re new to Mumsnet but please review the talk guidelines. Insulting another poster in the manner you have done isn’t considered acceptable here.

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 12:12

Watermelonpower · 03/04/2024 11:47

When Jewish terrorists such as the Stern gang and Irgun ethnically cleansed Palestinians and forced the British out, they took over a country with an infrastructure, a legal system and an economy. They expropriated the homes, businesses and land of the population who had previously lived there. Your notion of people building something up from tents in the ground out of nothing but sheer will is fantasy.

and while I’m happy to converse with those of opposing views, I don’t engage with people who make personal attacks and so won’t be engaging further with you. I don’t know if you’re new to Mumsnet but please review the talk guidelines. Insulting another poster in the manner you have done isn’t considered acceptable here.

Edited

Jewish people did not "ethnically cleanse" anyone. Anyone who didn't want to kill them was welcomed to stay as equal citizens in their newly founded state. Israel was not made through terrorism, it was made through diplomacy and fully legal means and within three hours the Pan Arab league declared war and intent to annihilate the new state and kill or expel all it's people. They lost that war. Them's the breaks. "Don't start wars" seems like repetitive advice, but it's good advice. You certainly wouldn't be here crying had they won.

There are historical records on exactly what occurred, and your version is sheer biased codswallop. There was no homes for the hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees to go. Such homes did not even exist. There was not a million "businesses" for them to take over. This is a cartoon in your head.

Some 700k immigrants came to Israel during the country’s first three and a half years at an average of close to 200k a year after being ethically cleansed from almost every Arab state, which meant in effect a doubling of the Jewish population. 1 in 10 left immediately because things were so awful! They lived in tents and rapidly developed a nation.

And the land was almost entirely not "owned" by those people of which you speak. The majority of it was owned by the state and the majority of the remainder by wealthy foreign landowners from elsewhere in the Arab world. Those people were as exploited as anyone else. They largely did not own homes. They largely owned nothing at all. The majority were recent immigrants themselves. There was virtually no "industry" and certainly no thriving economy.

Your views are a-historical, biased and typical of the "watermelon" brigade who are motivated by their own prejudice rather than either reality or meaningful justice. Sadly this is the attitude that promotes hate, war and intolerance and not peace. In time, your kind will be put back in their box, but enjoy your time in the sunshine. Every new generation of antisemites believes they have nailed it and found the reason hating Jews and treating them differently is justified, and each and every one is wrong.

Israel is an expression of Jewish people's rights to live on the land from which they came. A tiny part of that land actually, which they chose to share with people of other creeds and ethnicities. They have built a thriving and successful state and it's going absolutely nowhere.

Other groups have the same choices and opportunities, should they wish to take them. Should they instead choose to focus their energy on trying to kill or destroy others, then war is the inevitable result. I certainly hope in time they move on from that attitude. I certainly am not in Bagdad trying to suicide anybody to get my Grandfather's shop from 1940 back.

And as a side note if you want people to be polite to you on the internet, don't quote tweet their posts with "I am not reading this". That's aggressive, unpleasant and goady behavior. The victim / perpetrator reversal mechanism is strong in you! And I am impervious to it :)

Watermelonpower · 03/04/2024 12:45

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 12:12

Jewish people did not "ethnically cleanse" anyone. Anyone who didn't want to kill them was welcomed to stay as equal citizens in their newly founded state. Israel was not made through terrorism, it was made through diplomacy and fully legal means and within three hours the Pan Arab league declared war and intent to annihilate the new state and kill or expel all it's people. They lost that war. Them's the breaks. "Don't start wars" seems like repetitive advice, but it's good advice. You certainly wouldn't be here crying had they won.

There are historical records on exactly what occurred, and your version is sheer biased codswallop. There was no homes for the hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees to go. Such homes did not even exist. There was not a million "businesses" for them to take over. This is a cartoon in your head.

Some 700k immigrants came to Israel during the country’s first three and a half years at an average of close to 200k a year after being ethically cleansed from almost every Arab state, which meant in effect a doubling of the Jewish population. 1 in 10 left immediately because things were so awful! They lived in tents and rapidly developed a nation.

And the land was almost entirely not "owned" by those people of which you speak. The majority of it was owned by the state and the majority of the remainder by wealthy foreign landowners from elsewhere in the Arab world. Those people were as exploited as anyone else. They largely did not own homes. They largely owned nothing at all. The majority were recent immigrants themselves. There was virtually no "industry" and certainly no thriving economy.

Your views are a-historical, biased and typical of the "watermelon" brigade who are motivated by their own prejudice rather than either reality or meaningful justice. Sadly this is the attitude that promotes hate, war and intolerance and not peace. In time, your kind will be put back in their box, but enjoy your time in the sunshine. Every new generation of antisemites believes they have nailed it and found the reason hating Jews and treating them differently is justified, and each and every one is wrong.

Israel is an expression of Jewish people's rights to live on the land from which they came. A tiny part of that land actually, which they chose to share with people of other creeds and ethnicities. They have built a thriving and successful state and it's going absolutely nowhere.

Other groups have the same choices and opportunities, should they wish to take them. Should they instead choose to focus their energy on trying to kill or destroy others, then war is the inevitable result. I certainly hope in time they move on from that attitude. I certainly am not in Bagdad trying to suicide anybody to get my Grandfather's shop from 1940 back.

And as a side note if you want people to be polite to you on the internet, don't quote tweet their posts with "I am not reading this". That's aggressive, unpleasant and goady behavior. The victim / perpetrator reversal mechanism is strong in you! And I am impervious to it :)

Your attempts at historical revisionism and to deny the brutal reality of how the state of Israel was really founded is sad, but not surprising. Palestinians have dealt with this gaslighting for years. There’s no point in continuing to discuss this with you.

For anyone lurking on this thread who is actually interested in the history, please check out this thread on the 1948 Nakba and what happened during the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4979867-the-nakba-of-1948

The Nakba of 1948 | Mumsnet

Hello everyone I’m creating this thread because I feel there is not enough awareness about the Nakba of 1948 and the impact this had on the Palestinia...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4979867-the-nakba-of-1948

stormy4319trevor · 03/04/2024 13:40

Do you not know about Irgun, Stern gang etc. @LemonyTicket ? I remember looking around a museum in which the bombing of King David Hotel was described as something like an act of brave resistance against the British tyrants, rather than terrorism.

Oakstreet · 03/04/2024 13:43

Something has to stop them! It's beyond crazy, they are out of control. I enjoy reading Mike Peled, generals son. He was born into a strong zionist home and how they have propaganda thrown at them for an early age. Get them young.

Meadowfinch · 03/04/2024 13:45

Failed? I'd say their actions at the weekend move them into rogue state territory.

They are a disgrace.

Sussurations · 03/04/2024 13:59

Every new generation of antisemites believes they have nailed it and found the reason hating Jews and treating them differently is justified, and each and every one is wrong.

@LemonyTicket thank you for articulating this so powerfully.

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 14:18

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LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 14:22

BigFatLiar · 03/04/2024 09:29

Probably.

It's the aim of the surrounding Arab states to get rid of Israel which is after all a place created by the UN after WW2.
As long as Israel continues the conflict will continue and the two sides will become more intransigent.

I don't think it is at all. Most Arab states support the existence of Israel now. They have moved on from the antisemitism and extreme Arab nationalist of the 40s and 50s and they see the way forward as living in peace with Israel.

I am middle eastern myself, and most Arabs have their heads screwed on very well on this. They see that Jews have a right to be there. They see they've created a peaceful and thriving state that's friendly to anyone not bombing it.

They also see with complete clarity the danger of the extreme nationalist ideologies of Iran or regimes like Hamas. They wouldn't tolerate that garbage on their soil for 30 seconds.

There are very, very wise Arabs and Arab states who want to move forward in peace with the West and in peace with Western liberalism and ideals. There are others who would like to see the calipha re-established and women in hijabs 24 hours a day.

It is not one big hive mind, but to say all these states want Israel gone is simply not true.

AliceA2021 · 03/04/2024 14:25

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Thank you for sharing.

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 14:25

stormy4319trevor · 03/04/2024 13:40

Do you not know about Irgun, Stern gang etc. @LemonyTicket ? I remember looking around a museum in which the bombing of King David Hotel was described as something like an act of brave resistance against the British tyrants, rather than terrorism.

Of course. How is it in any way relevant? There has been terrorist acts committed by many people in history. Jews are human beings. Just like Christians or Hindus or Muslims they are capable of violence and wrongdoing. I am not sure what on earth that has to do with the price of eggs.

The state of Israel is a thriving economy and stable government. I also can't think off the top of my head of an act of terrorism committed by a Jewish person in probably 70 years. There's certainly no Jewish terror organisations proscribed by the UN security council. They are generally chill.

AliceA2021 · 03/04/2024 14:30

This:

"There are very, very wise Arabs and Arab states who want to move forward in peace with the West and in peace with Western liberalism and ideals. There are others who would like to see the calipha re-established and women in hijabs 24 hours a day.

It is not one big hive mind, but to say all these states want Israel gone is simply not true."

A large number of Arab countries want peace for the middle east. Hamas, hezbollah, Iran, The Houthis etc don't. Fortunately most Arab countries don't want war. If only the Palestinian people had a government who wanted to move forward for genuine peace, they deserve one. Otherwise sadly, this will just go on and on.

fungipie · 03/04/2024 14:36

EllaDisenchanted · 03/04/2024 08:07

if I wrote that about Gaza and the Palestinian people I’d quite rightly be piled on.

and then Bridgetta adding “ruthless” to that.

This whole thread is disgusting.

The truth is disgusting. Denial too.

fungipie · 03/04/2024 14:40

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 11:03

Israel received nothing. Not even support when the pan Arab states invaded it. It built itself through hard work, innovation and the will of it's people to thrive.

It has one of the highest GDPs on earth, and trades with most of the world. The countries you see as giving Israel "aid", benefit hugely from that trade and from countless technology patents and assistance in intelligence, medicine and defence.

Sadly, it lives next door to a bunch of racists with a motto of "kill all the Jews". A motto they unashamedly blast out across the world despite your deeming inability to hear it. And that country (which itself benefits from one of the highest foreign aid rates on earth) sadly chooses to shoot hundreds of thousands of indiscriminate missiles at Israel.

And whilst those missiles are largely forged from water pipes and smuggled valves from an ailing salination plant, they sadly do kill people. Hence Israel needs to spend an enormous amount of money on extremely expensive defence systems to stop - well for want of a less delicate way of putting it - it's citizens being blown to bits every day.

If countries like the US and UK deem it worthwhile to participate in helping with the astronomical cost of that defence, I am truly sorry you find this objectionable. I am sure it would be far less "racist" and much more righteous in your virtuous little world to simply let Hamas kill people.

Israel received nothing?

Pardon?

And what was the Nakba in 1948 all about? Please :(

fungipie · 03/04/2024 14:44

LemonyTicket 'srael is an expression of Jewish people's rights to live on the land from which they came. A tiny part of that land actually, which they chose to share with people of other creeds and ethnicities. They have built a thriving and successful state and it's going absolutely nowhere.'

absolute nonsense :( there are 1000s of territories that 'once upon a time' belonged to a certain people. None have gone back to those ancient 'tribes'. And what about illegal, cruel and violent expansion way beyond the 1948 territory?

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 14:55

@fungipie

There are 1000s of territories that 'once upon a time' belonged to a certain people. None have gone back to those ancient 'tribes'.

Jews are from Israel. That's where they became Jews. They never left, albeit their numbers greatly reduced due to the ongoing persecution. They were made dhimmi in their own land. Not in ancient history, literally until they were liberated in WWI. And they were banned by Muslims from owning land in their own country until that point. It was a crime under the Ottoman empire to sell land to a Jew :)

They spread out over many places, and they were unable to live safely, freely and equally in those places - despite their best efforts for circa 2300 years - and after millennia of subjugation and mistreatment, they were ethnically cleansed out of every single newly formed Arab state - where many had lives for more than 2000 years.

They moved to their own small part of the middle east, which is undoubtedly as much their home as any Muslim's, and now they live independently in a very small part about the size of the state of New Jersey. You could drive across Israel in less than two hours.

If you have a problem with this, then I guess that's your cross to bear. It's going nowhere.

And what about illegal, cruel and violent expansion way beyond the 1948 territory?
I am very sorry that the numerous wars launched against Israel to annihilate it were not won by the people you liked, but had any of them been, I assure you those winners would have "expanded" into Israel until it fell into the sea and obliterated itself. I am sure then you'd be drinking your cuppa finding a different reason to be cross at the circa 8 million Jews who would be left alive!

fungipie · 03/04/2024 14:58

And MN deletes many posts, and allows you to continue spewing this absolute nonsense in plain sight.

stormy4319trevor · 03/04/2024 15:00

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 14:25

Of course. How is it in any way relevant? There has been terrorist acts committed by many people in history. Jews are human beings. Just like Christians or Hindus or Muslims they are capable of violence and wrongdoing. I am not sure what on earth that has to do with the price of eggs.

The state of Israel is a thriving economy and stable government. I also can't think off the top of my head of an act of terrorism committed by a Jewish person in probably 70 years. There's certainly no Jewish terror organisations proscribed by the UN security council. They are generally chill.

It was relevant to you remarking that Israel was made through diplomacy and fully legal means. Just puzzled as to whether you were including the KDH bombing in that, or maybe don't think it was relevant to the creation of the state or some other point of view.