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Conflict in the Middle East

Anyone seen the video where the police officer says a swastika is not anti-Semitic at a pro Palestine March?

469 replies

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 31/03/2024 15:29

I know there are lots of pro-Palestine supporters in this area of the board. If not anti-Semitic then what else is it standing for in this context? Apparently it was drawn on some protestors banners.

OP posts:
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lisalisa · 04/04/2024 22:02

Im
sorry lemonyticket , you too . I also don’t let my son wear his kippah in the street ; was easier in the winter as he’d just put his hood on but it’s getting warmer now .
it’s nice that you can leave London every weekend though .
I hear you about the universities too ; two friends of mine have kids at one uni where they also suffered anti semitic attacks . It’s seems the anti semites have really crawled well and truly out of the woodwork now and I wonder whether they are going to go back again or if this is the reality .
Truly never thought I’d write this in my lifetime about England , ever .

Hélène79 · 04/04/2024 22:06

lisalisa · 04/04/2024 21:28

Really didn’t want to get too involved in these threads as they lead to stress and discomfort but something @LemonyTicket said resonated with me and I had to add my voice .
i love England ; we’ve been here since 1850s which is quite early for Jewish people who generally arrived between 50-70 years later . My family are very British and have been born , educated , paid taxes and worked all their lives and passed away and been buried here .
But we are making tentative plans to leave . Never thought I’d see the day but it’s too dangerous and uncomfortable to stay in England and especially for our next generation .
During the last 6 months our local supermarket was visited by a knife man looking to kill , my daughters netball game in the park was broken up by a group of shouting girls , my elder daughter was physically attacked and is now terrified to walk the streets after dark …… All anti semitic incidents .

Sorry to both you and @LemonyTicket for the crap your families are dealing with. Flowers I'm non practising and feel relatively safe but feeling a lot of pain for those of you who don't.

Some of the behaviour on this thread is utterly despicable.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 22:15

Kendodd · 04/04/2024 21:55

I will continue to call you out if you dismiss the killing of thousands of children with 'people die all over the world' I will not be silenced by you calling me antisemitic when I do call you out.
Shame on you getting that list of children's names deleted.

I will talk about antisemitism any time I want to, and if you use foul, abusive language at me for doing so I will report you every time. Shame on you.

Kendodd · 04/04/2024 22:29

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 22:15

I will talk about antisemitism any time I want to, and if you use foul, abusive language at me for doing so I will report you every time. Shame on you.

You called me antisemitic after I called you out when you dismissed the killing of thousands of children with 'people die all over the world all the time' I told you to fuck off with that accusation because of that.

I would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, dismiss the killing of so many people or anyone in that way. If it makes me antisemitic to call you out when you do, well, I just don't know what to say to that. I will continue to call out anyone being so dismissive of people being killed though, regardless of any names they call me in return for doing so.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 22:35

Kendodd · 04/04/2024 22:29

You called me antisemitic after I called you out when you dismissed the killing of thousands of children with 'people die all over the world all the time' I told you to fuck off with that accusation because of that.

I would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, dismiss the killing of so many people or anyone in that way. If it makes me antisemitic to call you out when you do, well, I just don't know what to say to that. I will continue to call out anyone being so dismissive of people being killed though, regardless of any names they call me in return for doing so.

If we were to imagine, being generous, that there is a conflict with very sad losses of life going on somewhere in the world. Let’s imagine such a situation might arouse anger for the innocent victims involved, then let’s look at a comparative scenario.

Say it was after the Manchester Bombings, and say as a result of those bombings, people had taken to the streets behaving in overtly and open ways to demonstrate hatred and bigotry towards Muslims. Let’s say this had been going on for months on end, and was very extreme. Imagine Muslim business being targeted around the world. Imagine teens on campuses holding up signs saying they wanted Muslims off Campus. Imagine Muslim students having eggs thrown at them or having their Muslim clothing ripped off them (both these things have actually happened at my child's university).

Let’s say a Muslims started a thread on Mumsnet to express how upsetting they found it that the Met police were justifying such actions on the streets of London, and denying that signs or symbols of hatred to Muslims were offensive.

Then let’s say a Muslim posted how sad it was that they could not discuss the hatred and bigotry they were experiencing because each time they tried they were told to shut up because of the victims of the bombing, and let’s say another Muslim posted to agree that people died every day and it never meant it was not possible to discuss racism.

Then let’s imagine someone replied to that, out of nowhere, with “Take your claims of Islamophobia and fuck off” and then posted a link to the victims of the bombings underneath. Quite rightly, such a post would be removed for breaking the Mumsnet guidelines. Because it's a totally disgusting thing to do.

Then imagine that person didn't accept what they'd done as disgusting, and instead attacked the Muslim poster for pages claiming they were “heartless” and didn’t care about dead children because they had asked for this foul personal abuse to be removed.

Imagine other posters joined in telling that Muslim woman that she was dismissing dead children and agreeing that she was heartless. Imagine deciding between yourselves that a Muslim can have a choice: Shut up about racist abuse, and allow people to direct foul language and personal abuse at them, or, face yet more abuse for refusing to accept that.

Imagine that.

You would see that at think “wow, those are racist bullies, WTF has that woman got to do with the Manchester bombings, she is entitled to discuss her pain and fear at the racism she’s experiencing without getting this kind of abuse”. And that would be the right thing to think.

And that is exactly what occurred here this evening.

Just to Jews, and not Muslims, which is why those doing it do not feel the instinctive “ick” that they should feel when behaving in such ways.

Bloody shame on you. Now do not speak to me again. I will be ignoring you.

stomachamelon · 04/04/2024 22:37

@Kendodd is this the right thread for this? And whether you like it or not it IS a personal attack.
That's what got you deleted.

Kendodd · 04/04/2024 22:53

stomachamelon · 04/04/2024 22:37

@Kendodd is this the right thread for this? And whether you like it or not it IS a personal attack.
That's what got you deleted.

I was called antisemitic for calling out a poster for dismissing the killing of thousands of children with 'people die all the time'. I'm not just going to let people name call me like that and let it slide. And if calling out stuff like that makes somebody antisemitic, well what? We should all just stay silent when people say stuff like that? I won't. I will call it out every time. No matter who says it. Its not OK.

And for information, the poster taking offence at my posting of the Gazan children's names. I had also posted a list of the people killed by Hamas pages ago, early in the thread.

Kendodd · 04/04/2024 23:06

Then let’s imagine someone replied to that, out of nowhere, with “Take your claims of Islamophobia and fuck off” and then posted a link to the victims of the bombings underneath.

My response was not 'out of nowhere'. It was in reply to you calling me antisemitic after I call you out on your 'people die' comment.

I am sorry and ashamed of my country for what you and your children are going through and the fear you live under, genuinely and heartfelt I am. I send you hugs tears, kindness and love for that if you'll accept them from me. You may have missed, we are a part Jewish family myself.

CatsKnowTheAnswer · 04/04/2024 23:09

@Kendodd please read @LemonyTicket response above and respectfully, reflect on your words and what may have provoked such an emotive post. This is not a game, people are literally crying out in pain right now.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 23:26

Kendodd · 04/04/2024 23:06

Then let’s imagine someone replied to that, out of nowhere, with “Take your claims of Islamophobia and fuck off” and then posted a link to the victims of the bombings underneath.

My response was not 'out of nowhere'. It was in reply to you calling me antisemitic after I call you out on your 'people die' comment.

I am sorry and ashamed of my country for what you and your children are going through and the fear you live under, genuinely and heartfelt I am. I send you hugs tears, kindness and love for that if you'll accept them from me. You may have missed, we are a part Jewish family myself.

I have attached the post you replied to so you can re-read it. I did not mention you or address you in any way and certainly did not call you an antisemite. I was, as clearly shown, responding to another Jew and you can clearly see what I said and who I was speaking to.

You responded to this with "fuck off with your accusations of antisemitism" and a link to dead Palestinian children, and you (and another poster backing you up) have now spent multiple pages attacking me and accusing me of not caring about dead children because I wasn't willing to tolerate that abuse from you.

I hope you can reflect on this, and imagine, as I asked, this happening to another minority. You say you are very sad that my family are experiencing antisemitism, but what you have done today is antisemitism and people who act in these ways and then become enraged and abusive to the victim is exactly what Jews are sick of.

Not only do we experience this outrageous racism, but we're not allowed to even speak up without someone showing us photos of dead children. The last I checked Ken, I haven't killed any children, so whilst their deaths are truly tragic, they dare nothing to do with me, and they are not an excuse for being abusive to Jews.

You wouldn't dream of acting like you did today if I were a homosexual discussing homophobia, or a Black person discussing racism. But you felt completely comfortable doing it to a Jew, so comfortable actually that for about 10 posts you have gone on to attack again and again and make yourself the victim.

Anyone seen the video where the police officer says a swastika is not anti-Semitic at a pro Palestine March?
Kendodd · 04/04/2024 23:30

CatsKnowTheAnswer · 04/04/2024 23:09

@Kendodd please read @LemonyTicket response above and respectfully, reflect on your words and what may have provoked such an emotive post. This is not a game, people are literally crying out in pain right now.

I'm sorry if I've upset anyone, including @LemonyTicket, genuinely I am. I know it's not a game, I know thousands of people have been killed and millions are terrified. I can't believe how much this whole exchange and wider situation has upset me as well.

Kendodd · 04/04/2024 23:37

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 23:26

I have attached the post you replied to so you can re-read it. I did not mention you or address you in any way and certainly did not call you an antisemite. I was, as clearly shown, responding to another Jew and you can clearly see what I said and who I was speaking to.

You responded to this with "fuck off with your accusations of antisemitism" and a link to dead Palestinian children, and you (and another poster backing you up) have now spent multiple pages attacking me and accusing me of not caring about dead children because I wasn't willing to tolerate that abuse from you.

I hope you can reflect on this, and imagine, as I asked, this happening to another minority. You say you are very sad that my family are experiencing antisemitism, but what you have done today is antisemitism and people who act in these ways and then become enraged and abusive to the victim is exactly what Jews are sick of.

Not only do we experience this outrageous racism, but we're not allowed to even speak up without someone showing us photos of dead children. The last I checked Ken, I haven't killed any children, so whilst their deaths are truly tragic, they dare nothing to do with me, and they are not an excuse for being abusive to Jews.

You wouldn't dream of acting like you did today if I were a homosexual discussing homophobia, or a Black person discussing racism. But you felt completely comfortable doing it to a Jew, so comfortable actually that for about 10 posts you have gone on to attack again and again and make yourself the victim.

I will reflect in the morning when I am less upset. I thought your initial antisemitism claim was directed at me personally, I'm sorry if I got that wrong and snapped back. I hope you will also reflect on your 'people die' comment. It's really not nice.

CatsKnowTheAnswer · 04/04/2024 23:43

Something else is going on here @LemonyTicket , I have no idea what, but please take care of yourself and take time to catch your breath.

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 00:06

Apology accepted @Kendodd

Goodnight and sleep well

Minymile · 05/04/2024 00:07

Kendodd · 04/04/2024 22:29

You called me antisemitic after I called you out when you dismissed the killing of thousands of children with 'people die all over the world all the time' I told you to fuck off with that accusation because of that.

I would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, dismiss the killing of so many people or anyone in that way. If it makes me antisemitic to call you out when you do, well, I just don't know what to say to that. I will continue to call out anyone being so dismissive of people being killed though, regardless of any names they call me in return for doing so.

Unfortunately as I’m sure you know full well @Kendodd
it’s assumed anyone who supports the Palestinians must be antisemitic. It’s infuriating when we can’t discuss what is going on and what the Israeli Govn, Netanyahu and all his supporters and the IDF are doing without posters brandishing everyone antisemitic.

Why can’t
People be upset and angry about the actions of the Israeli Govn on here! Without being accused of antisemitism
No one is blaming Jewish people for what is going on.

Pro Palestinian and Peace supporters on here seem very capable of differentiating between religion and state

It is not their fault if others cannot separate the two!

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 00:17

@Minymile Perhaps read the thread and what took place before charging in accusing Jews of brandishing people as antisemitism for criticising Israel.

AngkorWat · 05/04/2024 00:20

Scirocco · 04/04/2024 20:12

"People, sadly, are always dying somewhere" really does demonstrate a real depth of compassion for fellow human beings, doesn't it?

I’m finding some of this thread shocking.
Thankyou to the MN who reposted the list of names.
Their death is not a statistic to be brushed aside and reading the names makes it all the more real.

Hoping @Kendodd is OK after her efforts to post were removed.

OOBetty · 05/04/2024 00:24

Minymile · 05/04/2024 00:07

Unfortunately as I’m sure you know full well @Kendodd
it’s assumed anyone who supports the Palestinians must be antisemitic. It’s infuriating when we can’t discuss what is going on and what the Israeli Govn, Netanyahu and all his supporters and the IDF are doing without posters brandishing everyone antisemitic.

Why can’t
People be upset and angry about the actions of the Israeli Govn on here! Without being accused of antisemitism
No one is blaming Jewish people for what is going on.

Pro Palestinian and Peace supporters on here seem very capable of differentiating between religion and state

It is not their fault if others cannot separate the two!

Well said
it’s important to view the facts
To stand back from propaganda and one sided views.
Only facts and truth can inform us.

Not preconceived opinions or hate

Minymile · 05/04/2024 00:27

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 00:17

@Minymile Perhaps read the thread and what took place before charging in accusing Jews of brandishing people as antisemitism for criticising Israel.

I’ve been following this thread and many ‘conflict in the Middle East threads’ from the beginning along with other relevant threads.
But Thankyou anyway
I really don’t need advice on how to use MN

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 00:41

@Minymile No one was accused of being antisemitic for criticising Israel. The user has admitted they were mistaken, and since apologised. I'm sure, having read the thread, you'd know that.

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 00:42

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

PrairieChicken · 05/04/2024 01:11

Think our police officers need some training in offensive symbols!
The guy holding the swastika had already been arrested it seems so at least someone who spotted him understood it’s meaning.

A swastika or any religious symbol has no place on a ‘Stop the Genocide in Gaza March’.

Only symbols of peace are relevant.

BrownTroutBlues · 05/04/2024 02:55

Muthaofcats · 03/04/2024 19:24

Thank you - and sorry too, you sound perfectly reasonable and I understand your position. So wise not to take a side and I appreciate your reluctance to march (despite wanting the horror to stop). I find it shocking how many are happy to go on those marches alongside Hamas flags and swastikas and genocidal chanting and think that they are marching for peace.

I’ve thought a lot about this as I think I often come across as being ‘pro Israel’ when I realise I’m not in any way pro the Israeli government, I think I’m just protective of Jewish people as it’s so clear to me how thinly veiled a lot of what is said and done is truly about and I don’t believe one can really care about peace and humanity if they only care about one side.

I don’t think the pp was excusing or allowing any action by the IDF, I think it’s more about pausing, waiting for the evidence, not just allowing the bandwagon to run because with it becomes blood libel and potentially dangerous horses run.

It would have a been a really really stupid move of Israel if this attack does turn out to be a deliberate attempt to block aid; so stupid and counter Israel’s interests that it’s not unwise to pause and wait for more information before judging. I say this despite agreeing on the face of it, it doesn’t look good!!! so watching with interest to see how this unfolds…

this is a bit of a detour from the thread Op which was about swastikas at pro Palestine rallies. These should engender the same disgust and outrage as is directed at deaths in gaza, and it is just endlessly curious that it doesn’t. The swastika represents the most horrifying genocide of millions of people; every single person there (even the obviously uneducated ones) know what that symbol means. You March with it. You are complicit. Thank you for acknowledging this :)

I’m concerned that people still assume those that March for peace do so because they are Hamas supporters or Jewish haters
They are not, they support peace and an end to the destruction of Gaza and the suffering and killing of Palestinian people.

It is worth noting that it is physically impossible for all 200,000 marchers to spot one offensive symbol and as such 200,000 people cannot be complicit in anything.
The last March resulted in the arrest of 4 people under Public order acts. 4 out of 200,000. Whatever they were up to, whatever they were carrying or shouting or doing hardly anyone knows and it is disingenuous to assume everyone on the March was complicit in their actions.

The very idea of treating everyone the same is in itself discrimination.

People want peace and an end to the killing, starvation and suffering. The vast majority of marchers act respectfully, please don’t condemn them for the actions of a few.

CatsKnowTheAnswer · 05/04/2024 03:43

I want to believe you but frankly at this point it's impossible. early on in the marches I did try to give the benefit of the doubt and get on board that any wrong doings were from a breakaway minority faction, and tried to accept the fact that mistakes would lead to lessons being learnt and we shouldn't judge too hastily(remember the family with the autistic child who were intimidated and harassed at costa coffee for example??). But it's nonsense - if anything the behaviour being displayed is more overt, more brazen and more anti Semitic. Have a read back through this thread, especially the last few pages, and you'll see exactly what I mean. YOU may be marching for peace in a peaceful fashion but unfortunately, many others aren't.

BrownTroutBlues · 05/04/2024 04:00

CatsKnowTheAnswer · 05/04/2024 03:43

I want to believe you but frankly at this point it's impossible. early on in the marches I did try to give the benefit of the doubt and get on board that any wrong doings were from a breakaway minority faction, and tried to accept the fact that mistakes would lead to lessons being learnt and we shouldn't judge too hastily(remember the family with the autistic child who were intimidated and harassed at costa coffee for example??). But it's nonsense - if anything the behaviour being displayed is more overt, more brazen and more anti Semitic. Have a read back through this thread, especially the last few pages, and you'll see exactly what I mean. YOU may be marching for peace in a peaceful fashion but unfortunately, many others aren't.

I was referring to the tagged post about marchers being complicit. ( I have obviously read the thread )
They aren’t and can’t be unless they see what is going on and that, as I said is a physical impossibility.

Everyone should not be tarred with the same brush, that’s discrimination.
Its the same as our Jewish and Muslim population suffering at the hands of discrimination because of the conflict, its wrong to do this, it’s wrong to judge an entire group of people based on the actions of a few.
We are not all the same and have a right to the same respect afforded others.

In the early marches there were more problems, we saw that in the news. Whilst the numbers have grown the inappropriate behaviour has reduced despite the constantly worsening situation in Gaza.

I reiterate, we are not all the same.

Whether it’s on a March or a chat forum it’s important to remember most people just want peace and an end to the bloodshed. Most people really have no interest in peoples religion or any religion for that matter.

We must give peace a chance.

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