Anyone seen the video where the police officer says a swastika is not anti-Semitic at a pro Palestine March?

[EvangelicalAboutButteredToast]

I know there are lots of pro-Palestine supporters in this area of the board. If not anti-Semitic then what else is it standing for in this context? Apparently it was drawn on some protestors banners.

At the last event I attended (not in London):

Zero Nazi paraphernalia
Zero cosplaying if any sort (other than a couple of kids in fancy dress)
Zero arrests that I'm aware of

We had Palestinian flags because part of the purpose of the event was support for Palestinians.

We had talks about the importance of peace. And yes, that included talking about a 2 state solution, the differences between resistance (even 'armed resistance') and terrorism, bilateral peace efforts, and the importance of remembering that there are innocent people held hostage who need to not be forgotten.

No, it’s not too simplistic a conclusion. The war in Gaza is not causing a rise in anti-semitism. It is being used to legitimise already existing anti-semitism.

Well plenty of people have said they are filled with hate for Jewish people and very little else. Plenty of people have said that's not the case as well though. I'm going to try to go to one and see for myself. I will also actively seek out swastikas or other Nazi paraphernalia, Hamas flags and listen for 'death to Israel' 'river to sea' or other such chants will full intention of challenging anyone carrying such stuff. Obviously, this is my intention but I will try not to put myself in too much danger. I'm quite bolshy though so not easily intimated. If there is loads of this stuff everywhere, as posters have said there is, I won't be going to any more.

With regard 'ceasefire now' as I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong) the main time any hostages have been freed, has been under a ceasefire. I don't believe the bombing campaign or other 'boots on the ground' action has freed very many hostages at all? In fact, it has led to the death of some of the hostages. To my mind, setting aside for a moment just how many Palestinians will continue to be killed without a ceasefire, it seems the best chance to get hostages home. For what it's worth though, I think there should be a ceasefire regardless of hostages being released or not and I think the hostages should be released regardless of any ceasefire or not.

For us to remember, these are some of the hostages still held. It's from December, I would be amazed frankly if they were all still alive.

www.dailysignal.com/2023/12/04/who-are-hostages-still-being-held-captive-gaza/

Jewish people attend the marches.
Look at the news today.

Yesterdays March on the final Friday of Ramadan, a March that is carried out every year at the same time there were thousands of marchers including Jewish people.

The Met were mad allowing two marches on the same day but nevertheless their were dozens of pro Israeli supporters at Parliament square.

3 pro Israeli supporters were arrested out of those dozens.
7 others were arrested
2 have been reported as pro Palestinian but the news and Met have not identified who the other 5 were supporting.

But let’s assume all 7 were pro Palestinian marchers………out of thousands!
Whilst 3 pro Israeli supporters out of dozens.

Then let’s look at the statistics for the previous pro Palestinian match. 200,000 marched on the Stop the Genocide March last weekend and 0.002% of those were arrested ie..4 people.

So let’s try and give peace a chance

Definitely directing my comment at you, in response to your last post. But I can tell you don’t understand why, so let’s leave it here as not productive to engage further.

Oh interesting, were there no ‘river to the sea’ chants or posters or watermelon symbols either ?
ive never seen a pro Palestine March that hasn’t included the above so I’m surprised to hear you were at one without it any inflammatory or problematic signs / language.

just checking by ‘resistance’ you don’t believe Hamas actions were ‘resistance’? Are you saying that 7/10 was terrorism or resistance ?

I didn't know about the watermelon symbol. Found this about it below. There might be loads of lesser know symbols I have no clue about if Im walking next to people, likewise, stuff written in other languages. Edited to add link

Watermelon (Palestinian symbol) - Wikipedia

I honestly don’t understand why each ‘side’ wouldn’t all be marching together ? If this wasn’t about racial hatred and division but a plea for peace

Absolutely as you seem to miss the point and have accused me of being something I am not after only one prior post supporting the arrest of the individual!

So agree, please leave me alone !

It would be amazing and speak volumes if they did March together in a ‘stop the war March’

Yes thanks for that, it seems the watermelon symbol may be more nuanced than deliberately intimidating / in support of Hamas. I have read many Jewish people view that it is the same shape as Israel so to paint it all in Palestinian colours is essentially declaring the eradication of Israel and Jewish people, rather than a peaceful two state sharing of the land. However it seems there are certainly enough mainstream voices suggesting it doesn’t necessarily carry that sentiment, so I will correct myself that this one perhaps isn’t as strong an example as the swastika or river sea chants.

Wouldn’t it just.

I’ve never understood why the anger at Israel isn’t ALSO directed at Hamas though?

When 7/10 first happened I wondered if it would be an amazing opportunity for Palestinians and Israelis to come together against this terrorist group, but was surprised how many support Hamas actions and said they were justified, so perhaps it’s my grave naivety showing.

It does rather complicate things though if many support Hamas who openly declare in their manifesto to aim to eradicate Jewish people.

@Muthaofcats

There is a huge difference between resistance against an oppressing power (even armed resistance) and terrorism. Resistance might include peaceful protest, standing up for one's rights, etc, and there are many examples of armed resistance throughout history, ranging from small civil defence groups through to networks of resistance during major wars. Terrorism is not resistance.

At a time when there are increasingly polarised views and malign elements trying to further divide our society, I think it's important for people to have access to events where we discuss the differences. Terrorists who murder civilians and take hostages are not to be glamorised or held up as heroes.

Unfortunately, if after 6 months of posting here, people still think it's pro-Hamas of me to say that the current approach by the Israeli government and IDF is disproportionate and looking increasingly likely to be ineffective, and there needs to be a ceasefire negotiated, I doubt anything I say today will change those people's minds.

Or maybe!
Most are just supporting an end to the war and suffering, in which case why not walk together.

I don’t support Israeli or Hamas tactics. I’d just like an end to the killing, destruction, suffering and starvation. A return of all hostages and all innocent jailed civilians

I can’t imagine there are many people out there that think any of that is ok who ever you support, if indeed one has to declare support for one or the other.

I agree we should all be able to have a discussion about these things, even if people disagree or don’t like what you’re saying. As long as we continue to listen to each other, and challenge each other, we might learn something!

your definition of resistance makes sense; I was just scared you were saying 7/10 was justified ‘resistance’ for a second which many in support of Hamas have said.

@Muthaofcats Yes I was just going to ask what the issue with the watermelon symbol so thank you for correcting that

Most are just supporting an end to the war and suffering, in which case why not walk together.

I'm Jewish and wholly against what Israel is doing in Gaza. So while in theory a 'joint' protest against the war (and Hamas!) would be a wonderful thing, there's not a chance in hell I'm willing to "walk together" in a march where swastikas (and related antisemitic imagery) is present. No ifs or buts, it's really that fucking simple for me.

I quite agree.

i guess the complicating factor is whether you are anti-war in any guise, because under international law states do have a right to defend themselves. So as long as Israel is following international law, and acting in a proportionate way, they do have the legal right to defend themselves from the ongoing threat Hamas wage. Hamas hiding in civilian buildings is also a war crime and neutralises otherwise protected zones, which is also a complicating factor. It makes the calculation Israeli has to make; an extremely tricky one. I have no idea if they are currently operating within the limits of the law, they purport to be, but we will have to continue to pay close attention.

id love to be a true pacifist and be anti war in any form, but without war, the nazis would have eliminated whole races etc so there is a time and place for resistance.

I don’t understand why, if we were all in agreement Hamas was wrong and needed to be removed, we couldn’t all unite against them and support Israel in doing so with minimal collateral damage. I guess it is complicated by the fact many support Hamas. I genuinely have no answers for all this, it’s all desperate and meanwhile countless people suffer and starve. I hope there are greater political and legal minds out there thinking of a strategic solution at the moment, but sadly it probably requires a joined up global effort and the increasing isolationist trend in geo politics doesn’t really support that at the moment.

Yes exactly and others above have said this was also the reason they would never March on these ‘peace’ marches either.

We had a few very unpleasant people who turned up to a few events with offensive signs that were clearly anti-semitic. We were told we couldn't send them away because it was "a public space" and there would need to be a threshold of "fear and alarm" met to have them removed. So, we 'organised' them into an area hopefully far enough away to keep them away from groups who could be particularly upset or vulnerable to them, and warned others that they were there (we had a plan but people needed to have the choice to not attend). Once the event started, we had lots of us go to the police and point them out as causing fear and alarm. Threshold met, fascists removed. After a few goes, their attendance inexplicably dropped dramatically.

I'm very disappointed in the London marches in particular for the toxicity that they've let grow unchecked.

If you aren't in London and want to get involved, you could make contact with your local event organisers and ask them questions about their approaches to events, antisemitism, etc, to see if you'd feel comfortable.

There are also other ways to support calls for peace that don't involve marches or demonstrations or in-person events. Lots of charities are active in Palestine and in Israel, trying to provide support for everyone affected - every bit of support for their work is helping work towards peace and healing. There are lots, so you can look into them and hopefully find one or more that you'd feel comfortable supporting.

Agree too.

I broadly support Israel but have come to a point where I do think there should be a ceasefire.

However I would not go on a march ever. Do I think all those protesting are anti semetic and hate Jews...no...but some do and I will never stand alongside them.

@Scirocco
If you aren't in London and want to get involved, you could make contact with your local event organisers and ask them questions about their approaches to events, antisemitism, etc, to see if you'd feel comfortable.

How would I find out about them?

@Kendodd you could try an online search for 'ceasefire march [place name]' or similar, which should bring up relevant local results including Facebook pages and should also bring up websites for bigger organisations coordinating marches or events - most of them have 'get involved' or 'contact us' options, which can direct you towards local organisers.

Local organisers are probably more helpful than general information from a 'central office', as local organisers can tell you about the culture of their own area's events - they might even be able to suggest some to avoid if you have particular concerns (eg, if the atrocities of 7/10 had happened in the UK, I might not want to go to an academic discussion about the technicalities of armed resistance vs terrorism given that it would have been 6 months since those atrocities and it would probably still be too raw - those discussions are important but can be distressing). Some events might also have 'buddy' options, where you could meet someone to attend with them - it can feel intimidating going to unfamiliar, politically charged environments.

Together for Humanity have done interfaith work advocating for peace, so could be one to check out. Parents for Palestine do some family events and organise 'children's blocs' for marches and demonstrations, so they could probably direct you to lead organisers as well as tell you about their own activities. (Disclaimer: mentioning these should not be taken as support or otherwise - they're simply being mentioned as options for finding out the information you'd want in order to decide whether to attend an event).

Another thing to remember is that, as many events are public, you don't have to be a participant to observe what it's like. You can just be in the area as an inconspicuous member of the public and get an idea of whether you would want to try participating. For example, if you see a march where people protesting peacefully, not doing upsetting things or behaving violently, that's very different from one where there's hate and threats.

Thank you!

Absolutely this. If these are ' peace ' marches, why not have everyone march together in solidarity ? We all have a common aim after all don't we?