Anyone seen the video where the police officer says a swastika is not anti-Semitic at a pro Palestine March?

[EvangelicalAboutButteredToast]

I know there are lots of pro-Palestine supporters in this area of the board. If not anti-Semitic then what else is it standing for in this context? Apparently it was drawn on some protestors banners.

So you have to see something with your own eyes to believe it or acknowledge its existence? so now you do know that swastikas were waved around on a march for peace will this now stop your attendance? Only 4 arrests were made, doesn't mean that there were no other people committing hate crimes btw, it means no others were caught! I know generally the police do a good job but even they can't catch everyone. ( or in this case, even decide if an actual crime has been committed)

Afraid I will continue to condemn people who March alongside those chanting racist chants and brandishing symbols promoting hatred. I don’t accept that you stand for peace whilst you do so.

I have been present for those marches and they are very much not edge cases - they are very very much apparent and it was menacing and distressing to be standing next to this crowd. It did not feel peaceful, it felt terrifying.

To say you aren’t aware of this sentiment and that you are not complicit by marching with them is either naive or dishonest.

To tell me I am discriminating against you (for which protected characteristic I am unsure?) because I condemn those who March alongside swastikas is insulting (and shows an ignorance for what discrimination means but I will forgive your lack of understanding of criminal and employment law.)

Put it this way; a news reporter records footage of you stood protesting for ‘peace’ amongst a group holding up swastikas and chanting ‘from the river to the sea’ and publishes it online. Are you happy for your face to be included in that footage? Happy for your employer and colleagues to see it? Surely you understand anyone seeing it will believe you hold the same sentiment because you March with these people?

you have a duty to either eject these people from your protests or not March with them if you don’t want to be complicit.

It’s not good enough to say you didn’t know.

Hindu temple
Buddhist temple
Jain temple
In Japan it indicates on a map where Buddhist temples are.

@LemonyTicket
Ok, I've reflected in the morning and I'm sorry, I shouldn't have told you to fuck off with antisemitism accusations. If I thought you were speaking to me I should have asked you directly, politely, about that, not just gone off on one. Anyway, I apologise for that.

I am not sorry for challenging you on your 'people die' comment though. But I should have done so gently and respectfully pointed out that these are some of the children you speak of. I'm sure had I done it that way you would have just felt ashamed and sorry, instead I went off on one making you angry and defensive. I hope you will see though how offensive I found such, as I read it to be, flippant comment about children's deaths. And absolutely 100%, I would pull up somebody gay or black who said such a thing. Gently, it's an insult to suggest I wouldn't. I really was a horrible thing to say. I had also once posted a list of the people murdered on October 7th after an, again as I read it to be, flippant comment about their deaths. People deserve to be pulled up on stuff like that and see just who they are talking about.

Reflecting on wider antisemitism. I do hold the state of Israel to high standards, and yes, higher than some other countries and am horrified by their actions in Gaza. In the same way I expect higher standards from the UK and some European and other countries than say, Russia or China. In all cases, I'm taking about the governments of these countries, not the people. I don't hold my tongue about these countries either or just let it slide with a 'what do you expect' attitude. I will reflect on this as well though and whether this is rooted in racism and antisemitism on my part. Expecting the same high standard of behaviour from Hamas and the Israeli government does feel like expecting the police and criminal gangsters to show the same levels of care for public safety though. But I will also think more about this.

For what it's worth, I was accused of defending anything Jewish people do (note, Jewish people NOT the Israeli government) on a thread a while ago. According to a poster back then they were 'your precious Jews'. Although that line didn't take off the way this one has. So I've been hauled over the coals for both loving Jews and hating Jews within a couple of months.

Ah so the people at an anti Israel March were simply directing lost Buddhists to the nearest temple? Silly me!

These marches often go right by my house. How come no one is holding up a sign saying "peace"? How come none of the chants say "peace"?

Sure, many have signs saying "Ceasefire now", but they're simultaneously chanting for Intifada Revolution so I don’t really believe they want a two sided ceasefire.

That aside, were I attending a political march and discovered every week some of my compadres were saying "Hitler was right" or brandishing swastikas or confederate flags or wearing white hoods with the eyes cut out; I wouldn't be going back on such a march again.

I just wanted to say as someone who observed that back and forth unfold, how much I applaud you for pausing, reflecting, and responding thoughtfully.

Regardless of whether we agree or disagree I admire your ability to dial it back, cool down, and consider your own contribution whilst reflecting on the experience of the other poster and how what you said might have landed with them.

If only more on threads like this, and in life generally, could do the same, we would be a lot closer to the peace that we (mostly) all desperately want.

Yes this is the difficulty with ‘ceasefire now’ it is very much a loaded imperative isn’t it.

Ceasefire in very simple terms might just mean ‘stop bombing Gaza’ to you, but it also means ‘you have no right to defend yourself from the certain sustained rape and murder promised by Hamas’ and ‘Hamas has zero accountability for this ongoing saga, it is all on you Israel and your people, and Jews generally, deserve it. You have no right to exist’ etc etc.

So even this simple slogan can be read very differently and it is very difficult to read even something as simple as ‘ceasefire now’ and not assume that the person has at least considered what this would mean for Israel if they got their wish. I do also wonder why you wouldn’t add ‘release the hostages’ to the ‘ceasefire now’ request because at least that would then acknowledge the humanity and suffering of those people too. I find when I see that, it softens the impact. The total silence from these protestors after 7/10 before israel had even responded and the failure to hear Jewish people’s fear and pain now has been the most shocking thing for me and again, raises doubts that the protests are purely motivated by a sense of humanity and virtue.

The different reading of ‘ceasefire now’ is just one example, which I know many will debate and disagree on, likewise with ‘from the river to the sea’ or the watermelon symbols.

It gets increasingly difficult to explain away or justify the tearing down of posters of the hostages or those trying to dilute or diminish the gravity of swastika symbols being openly carried (and the fact the person clearly felt this would be welcomed by the crowd) or the vandalism to Jewish businesses or schools etc.

And if you don’t think these words or symbols matter or have the impact that many people are telling you they do, then you just need to look at the horrifying increase in hate crimes towards Jewish people since this all erupted.

There are many many ways one could protest for peace and the wellbeing of those in Gaza without using language that hurts and incites hatred.

Words matter; if you are told the language you are using is causing pain and inciting racism and criminal behaviour then wouldn’t you be horrified and reflect and refocus and think about how best to achieve your aim without hurting people?

I think the difficulty is many marching for peace will be doing so just because they disagree with Israel’s response to 7/10 and are concerned for the implications; and there’s nothing wrong with that - the majority of the western world watches in horror at the situation and everyone has the right to peaceful protest.

But the problem is these people are marching alongside many who sadly are marching for a lot more than this: the majority of Palestinians support what happened on 7/10, and there were westerners celebrating in the street in Sydney and London the day after old ladies were rounded up from their beds and shot and young children were killed in their mothers arms. This is all before Israel had responded.

Like it or not, but you are walking with these people. These people DO NOT want the same thing as you.

You owe it to the future of humanity to think about how best to achieve true peace for all and this requires more sophistication than just picking a side and doubling down when challenged or asked to think about it. This applies to all of us.

I answered a question, that is all.

The symbol has been around for thousands of years. For most of its history it wasn't a bad thing. For significant numbers it is a positive thing.

It wasn't even called a swastika in Nazi Germany.

https://apnews.com/article/religion-germany-race-and-ethnicity-europe-2c28b5892381cd4148dfde5bc4fbb004

This symbol has power as a signal of hate to one group, surely taking that power away, by differentiating it from the Nazis would be beneficial to everyone.

The link includes a quote from a Holocaust survivor, “Hearing that the swastika is beautiful and sacred to so many people is a blessing,” she said. “It’s time to let go of the past and look to the future.”

Sorry but what’s your point ?

Are you saying the police officer’s response to a swastika at an anti Israel March was not anti semetic?

perhaps he just found it a very beautiful Buddhist symbol. Sound blissful to see it at that March and just feel it’s blessing. All these whining Jews should just let go of the past and move forward and let people be free to enjoy their lovely positive symbol.

Utter tripe.

I agree with this. Your thoughtful response @Kendodd was appreciated by me and I am sure other Jews reading this who have lost faith in being listened to and treated with dignity.

As for my part, my words "someone is dying every day" were not intended to diminish the tragedy of those deaths or minimise them, but to say that because people are dying in Gaza it does not mean Jews do not have a right to speak about this.

We would not tell a Black person that they had to shut up about racism because white farmers were being murdered in South Africa.

We would not tell a Muslim they had to shut up about racism because people died in 9/11.

And I cannot tell my son that he must not complain about the person who shouted at him on a bus that he was a "fat Jew c**t" because children are dying in Gaza.

It is not the Black person's fault that white farmers are being murdered in South Africa, it is not the Muslim's fault that people died on 9/11, and it is not mine or my son's or any other British Jews fault that a single person has died in Gaza.

Sadly, people are dying every day - in conflict, of starvation, and in terrible, violent and horrible ways. That does not now, and will never, mean anyone cannot speak out about their pain and what they are experiencing in their daily lives.

Jews aren't responsible for the tragic deaths of Palestinian people, and I have not met a single one who wanted 7/10 to happen or for this war to begin.

Brilliant post, thank you.

I do not believe most people on the marches want an end to war. I believe they want an end to Israel.

Perhaps that is not all of them, but like you say, when people are brandishing swastikas in the belief (and likely correct belief) that they will be welcomed by a crowd, that crowd probably do not have the best intentions.

I am sure there are people who are innocent of ill will to Jews. Perhaps genuine peaceniks who want and end to war. Or those swept along with it because it's fashionable. Or those caught up in feeling they need to join in with their friends. I am even more certain that the vast majority have about 1% of the information they'd need to even have a valid opinion on the complexity of the situation.

I hope there comes a time where they are able to reflect in greater numbers that perhaps marches where people openly support Hitler, call for violence, brandish racist symbols or otherwise cause pain and fear, are probably not the peace marches they think they are.

Please read the posts tagged.
The point I was raising is the previous posters sweeping generalisation that everyone is complicit in the actions of a few!

Everyone is not complicit.
To assume they are is discrimination.!!

Discrimination is wrong!!
It’s worth also pointing out that how do we know that people who try to stir up hate weren’t pointed out to the police by the many peaceful demonstrators, we don’t. Maybe they did, maybe that’s why they got arrested.

Ive said my peace if people still can’t appreciate the suffering that hate and discrimination brings to everyone then there will be many more wars to come.

The marches are not anti Israel.

They are peace marches, no one would be marching if there was peace!

Official title of the last or recent march was

Stop the Genocide March

Agree with all this.

And I'm so sorry your poor ds experienced that.

If you assume everyone is the same you are complicit in the very discrimination that is causing all the problems in this country.

I chose not to discriminate against anyone.

Agree @BrownTroutBlues
So much hate brewing breads wholesale condemnation of the many.
The swastika carrying idiot was arrested and We should be dwelling on the huge positive voice the marchers have for peace!

After the recent killing of 7 more aid workers(320 to date since last November) the US and UK will hopefully stop supplying arms to the IDF who are clearly incapable of using them.

For reference if you go back to the start of the conversation @sashh was indeed answering the question posted by @IsoldeWagner

who asked

in what context is a swastika not offensive

@sashh answered that question.
They were referencing quite rightly the appropriation by the Nazis of an ancient religious symbol. They were making no reference of its use in any other context, they were simply answering a very straight forward question.

refer back to the whole conversation to see

Quite right.

Babe, you might want to look up the definition of discrimination.

telling you that you are complicit if you March with these people is not discrimination I’m afraid.

It’s assuming everyone is the same.
I do not assume all white people have the same views
I do not assume all Israelis people have the same views
I do not assume all Christian’s have the same views
I do not assume all Muslims have the same views.

Anyone who takes the actions of one and assumes everyone believes in that and follows that and everyone is complicit in their actions is discriminating against all others.

My name isn’t babe, I appreciate you may be using the term to be kind but I’m not keen I prepare my username.

Agree I hate this idea we are all put into the same little box of hatred just because of a couple of idiots on a march.

ps
A Johnny Flynn song I see.
Im a fan too 👏

When the war first started I was very pro the marches and would not hear anyone who opposed them. During the course of the war I have been reading the concerns that some people have, especially from the Jewish community even though i don't always engage on those threads, and I think I'm slightly more on the fence now, despite how strongly I feel about war. I also don't want to unintentionally make other people feel unsafe. Suffice to say its no longer a clear black and white matter for me. However, I still do object to everyone on the marches labelled or tarred with the same brush and I don't think that it's unreasonable to say so.

Also to add I don't always engage on those threads as often this board is quite polarised as you are either on one side or the other and commenting or agreeing to points on the 'other side' is at times viewed as being insincere.

I just typed out a whole answer and then gave up and deleted it. I think we are operating on very different levels and I’m not sure even if I explained to you, you’d be willing or able to understand, so I’ll leave you to make up your own approach to this vastly complex and nuanced subject.

If you’re happy to March alongside swastikas and chants about ethnically cleansing Israel of all Jews and believe people are ‘discriminating against you’ for challenging that, then I don’t think it’s worth my energy trying to change your mind.

I despair.