Other people's shoes.

[sparklyrabbits]

The Question of Palestine.

I am no expert in the conflict but I found this brief video from the United Nations an interesting, brief overview of what happened in 1948.

Putting aside the needs of the Jewish people after WW2, I couldn't help but put myself in the shoes of the Palestinian people. In the main, they have never received compensation for losing their homes or even an acknowledgement or apology from the international community in regards to what they lost.

I spent some time living in Egypt in the naughties and met an elderly Palestinian man who still wore the key to his home in Palestine on a chain around his neck. He is probably long gone now and I doubt he was ever able to return. I didn't know huge amounts about the conflict at the time.

I recently read the book ' Searching For Fatima' by Ghada Karmi who was a Palestinian living in Jerusalem in 1948 and the years leading up to being forced to leave her home. Her family were quite Middle Class and had a very nice life in a villa, good education etc. They lost it all and a Jewish family moved into their home. They thought leaving was temporary until things were safe again.
Putting aside anything that has happen since but moving back in a time machine to 1948, if I was in their shoes, I don't think I would ever get over this. I can't imagine becoming a refugee knowing that someone else was living in my home, sitting in my garden etc. I wouldn't care what religion they were -the hatred and anger would be real.

I have always been interested in the Holocaust and have been to several cities that had prewar Jewish communities. I have always had huge amounts of sympathy and cannot imagine how you rebuild your life after what they suffered. I have now started reading 'Friendly Fire' by Ami Ayalon who is an Israeli and ex head of the Israeli Shin Bet. I've not finished it yet but an excellent read.

His father moved to Palestine in the 1930's from Romania and lived in a Kibbutz. His father was treated like an outsider in Romania as a Jewish person and never felt like he belonged. It was interesting to hear his story and attempt to put myself in his shoes and why he felt his future was in Palestine. He speaks about the education he received at school about Israel and comments that it would skip from the history as per the Torah and then jump a couple of thousand years to heroes circa 1948.

He also writes about the dehumanisation of the Palestinians, the behaviour of the settlers and the changes that need to happen if Israel is to have a future. More importantly, he talks about the need for empathy for the Palestinians. I've not completed the book yet but would be interested if anyone else has read this book but don't want this post to go down the path of talking about current events in regards to Hamas and the IDF and atrocities.

There is no like for like in conflict.

The pain of war is the same the world over. Death in this conflict is the exact same as death in any other conflict.

Trust me, I do.

In most countries in the West we oppose violent occupation no matter who is doing it. Who in their right mind wouldn't oppose violent, illegal occupation? Do you not oppose violent, illegal occupation?

I genuinely don't understand where you are coming from at all. Israel are acting against the majority of our moral codes and has been for a very long time. For what reasons should we fawn over a country that is an illegal occupier? What about a country that is an illegal occupier, a country that routinely throws people violently out of their homes like they are rubbish should give us the warm and fuzzies? We react strongly to people who throw their dogs out of their homes in the West, we think that that is disgusting. Do you not think it follows that people would be equally disgusted that a country does this to people? And that's before you get into the rest of it like denying people in the West Bank the right to walk down certain streets, to build homes, to have water wells. Do you not think its normal to have a negative feelings towards a country that treats people like that?

I don’t know about you, but I also react pretty strongly to the raping, torturing, murdering and mutilating of 1,400 civilian men, women and children.

Yeah, me too. I think Hamas are disgusting. I don't really have words strong enough to say how I feel about them.

It's totally natural to feel negatively towards things that go against your moral code. You don't need to be Islamaphobic to say that Hamas are disgusting. Just like you don't need to be antisemitic to recognise that Israels actions presently and over the years have been terrible.

This is a shift in the discussion. I was talking about the problem of deep-rooted anti-Semitism that explains why majority Palestinian opinion (at present) will never accept a Jewish presence on what they consider to be Islamic lands. You cannot have a viable negotiation with a partner who fails to recognise your right to exist.

I understand that Israel’s occupation of the West Bank is unacceptable to many people, and this is a reasonable position to have. I would argue that Israel’s occupation of the West Bank came after a war that Israel won after it reacted pre-emptively against a forthcoming Arab attack, and it was reasonable for security reasons, given the continuing presence of people who are prepared to murder Jews. But I understand that there are daily humiliations of occupation, and I’m concerned too about some elements of the settler movement. None of this is to draw an equivalence between Israel and Hamas, and nothing can justify the murder of Jews for being Jews.

Hmm, ok. So you don't think the way Israel treats them plays into that at all? That to me seems like massive cognitive dissonance. Most Palestinians have had relatives killed by Israel, displaced by Israel, maimed by Israel, illegally detained by Israel, humiliated by Israel, forced into poverty by Israel, have their water restricted by Israel and on and on and on it goes. So many aspects of Palestinian lives are influenced by what Israel allows. How many people like their illegal occupier? I live in Ireland and we still have people that pull a face at the mention of 'the Brits' because of what was done to us by our occupiers. How do you know how many hate Israelis because some of them are jewish and how many hate them because they keep voting in right wing governments that suppress every aspect of their lives? How do you separate that out?

You cannot have a viable negotiation with a partner who fails to recognise your right to exist.

Does Israel recognise Palestines right to exist? The 10% of Israelis that feel entitled to live in occupied territory would not agree, nor would the government who funds those illegal settlements and says there will never be a 2 state solution. With a military that says "We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn't stop with Hiroshima -- the Japanese weren't surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too. There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing." I'm not sure about you but none of that says we recognise your right to exist.

@CaterhamReconstituted You cannot have a viable negotiation with a partner who fails to recognise your right to exist.

you do realise that there are people on both sides with this view. The Israeli government have been very open in stating that they do not believe a Palestinian state should exist. Netanyahu has openly said he has done all he can to prevent a Palestinian state from forming.

@CaterhamReconstituted There's also people on both sides who would like two separate states and to live side by side peacefully. Its unfair to paint it as if only one side holds animosity towards the other.

Yes there are those in Israel who do not want to see a Palestinian state, but a “Greater Israel”. I don’t support those voices. Most Israelis don’t support them.

(This is a slightly different issue to the Netanyahu position that a two-state solution is unviable given the nature of the current Palestinian leadership so the best course of action is a management of the status quo).

Of course hearts have hardened over the years, on both sides. Much of this is understandable. But underpinning the hatred on the Palestinian side is a religiously-inspired hatred of the Jews that is so often denied. There is an absolutely no doubt that anti-Semitism - not understandable opposition to Israel because of occupation, but actual hatred of the Jews as a people - is rife in the Palestinian Territories. There can no be peace or path to statehood while this view is so ascendant.

@CaterhamReconstituted can you really not see how your comment is racist?

Please explain this to me

But underpinning the hatred on the Palestinian side is a religiously-inspired hatred of the Jews that is so often denied.

I’ve had Muslims tell me the same thing. The Muslims I know are very liberal though, and non practising.

So I’d also be interested to know how this is racist.

@CaterhamReconstituted you have falsely said that most Palestinians have a religious inspired hatred for Jews and its nothing to do with the occupation. Have you ever been to a Palestinian territory to have observed that? Have you lived there under Israeli occupation?

These are your own incorrect racist assumptions which you are stating as fact

Really I think its a bit more nuanced than that. Its like Catholics and Protestants in Ireland. It was never about religion, it would be way too simple to say that. People didn't hate Protestants because they were Protestant or Catholics because they were Catholic it was because of what it stood for politically and in term of rights etc

When two religions face very different lives living the same area separating out what is religious hatred and what is hatred for acts commited upon them is near impossible.

I did not say that occupation is not relevant. I said that “hearts have hardened over the years, on both sides”. Decades of war and occupation will have this effect. How could they not? Palestinians have understandable grievances. But it is also true to say that anti-Semitism is a huge problem and is an impediment to peace.

Hamas are not the same as the Palestinian people. But Hamas are not unpopular in the Palestinian Territories. The hatred of the Jews is not some fringe opinion there. Do you think this is untrue to say this? Do you think it is untrue that hatred of the Jews is connected to Islamic doctrine? And no, to pre-empt the allegation, that does not mean that it is acceptable to deliberately kill civilians, whatever they believe.

I don’t understand the racism allegation. I’m talking about religiously-inspired ideas. I’m not talking about a people as a race.

@CaterhamReconstituted all religions have extremists who will twist or manipulate things to further their own agenda. No, hatred of Jews is not connected to mainstream Islam. Infact from all the other religions, Judaism is the closest to Islam in beliefs and are our brethren in faith as we share the same Forfather the prophet Abraham.

In terms of race you did talk of the Palestinians as a race.

I think you are downplaying perhaps unintentionally how life is living under occupation. This is a interview with a former Israeli PM that was done prior to the war. He talks of the occupation and how Israel should cease to occupy the territories and why. You may find it an interesting read

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/3/16/23639947/palestine-netanyahu-israel-protests-ehud-olmert

@CaterhamReconstituted BTW my post wasn't an attack at you so I hope it wasn't taken as one. I think it's good if we can have a open dialogue even if I do disagree with some of what you have said

The hatred of the Jews is not some fringe opinion there. Do you think this is untrue to say this?
Most of us cannot say whether it is true or not. Do you have any evidence to back up the claim?
Israelis hate Palestinians there is plenty of evidence for that. I don't think it helps either side to compare their levels of hate but you appear to assume Palestinians hate of Israelis is more problematic then Israeli hate of Palestinians. Why?

From the interview

So when I say that we have to pull out from the territories, it’s not because I worry for the Palestinians.
I first of all worry for ourselves, because we can’t afford to continue to live under circumstances where there are millions of people without rights, which we occupy without giving them the basic elementary rights that they deserve. It’s as simple as day.

I’ve not lived under the occupation of a foreign power. I would never claim personal knowledge of how this feels, but I can appreciate people must find it intolerable.

I do think it’s clear that anti-Semitism is a huge problem. There’s a bunch of evidence to support this. Polls showed three quarter support in the Palestinian Territories for the 7 Oct attacks. These were attacks against Jewish civilians, not the IDF. If you look at surveys of anti-Semitism in Gaza and the West Bank it is extraordinary high, over 90%.

I don’t think religion is irrelevant either. We must never be disallowed to criticise religion and we must be honest about its teachings. There are texts about Muslims fighting the Jews on judgement day where all trees and rocks will help Muslims to kill the Jews. Im not saying this to offend people, but it is there. Not all Muslims will take this sincerely, but neither is true to say that anti-Semitism is disconnected to Islamic teachings.

I agree that the dignity of the Palestinians must be guaranteed by their life in an unoccupied state, but how do we get there? It’s not possible when so many people there support the murder of Jews and the leadership is explicitly committed to the destruction of Israel and the murder of all Jews.

If you genuinely recognise the personhood and humanity of the Palestinians, you can't but acknowledge that the formation of the state of Israel was a huge injustice imposed upon them. They were dispossessed in favour of a people who had not lived there in significant numbers for a thousand years. There were pragmatic and compassionate grounds for doing so, but the basic injustice of that position is the starting point. Now the Palestinians are told, essentially "Get over it" because Israel is there and is armed to the teeth, and that safety for the Jewish people takes precedence over their right to justice. And, indeed, their response to that injustice is cited as a reason to heap further injustice upon them. Of course there needs to be a peaceful solution. But unless it goes a long way to remedying that injustice, it will not be a lasting one.

It's clear you are really blinkered. Nobody at all is saying antisemitism isn't a thing. They are objecting to the idea that Palestinians as a whole hate Jews simply for being Jewish. Your idea that even though every single Palestinian life is negatively affected by the Israeli government you can simply separate out what is religious hatred and what is hatred for what has been and continues to be done to them is preposterous. Your lack of acknowledgement that this hatred is reciprocated by their oppressors is also noted.

Israel have made it clear, with really unambiguous statements that they are commited to the destruction of Gaza and of all of the people there yet you continue to ignore and downplay Israels role in this. Your thoughts that what else can Israel do except violently and illegally occupy Palestinians really show your true colours.

Palestinians are people like you, like me. There is no reason at all to believe that they are a bunch of angry people just waiting to kill Jewish people just because they are Jewish like you are repeatedly stating. Look at the West Bank for proof of this. How on earth do 10% of Israelis live illegally in illegal occupied territory when according to you 90% of Palestinians there antisemitic, yet Israel still year on year on year on year kill more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis. How do they manage to steal their homes, to prevent them walking down streets, driving down roads, attending hospital, attending school? How is all this done if Palestinians are like you claim? How are Israel consistently killing so many more Palestinians? None of it adds up and you might want to ask yourself why.

Now the Palestinians are told, essentially "Get over it" because Israel is there and is armed to the teeth, and that safety for the Jewish people takes precedence over their right to justice.

This happened close to 100 years ago and there is really nothing anyone can do to remedy it now. I would also consider the safety of my children more important that someone else’s right to justice for events that took place generations before I was born.

I would really like to know what justice looks like to people? I would consider justice subjective, so what is justice here?

And, indeed, their response to that injustice is cited as a reason to heap further injustice upon them.

So raping, torturing, murdering and mutilating 1,400 as a “response to injustice” should be met with what? Compassion? Don’t get me wrong, I am not in support of what is currently happening in Gaza, but Israel, like any other country in the world, has a right to defend itself.

@CaterhamReconstituted it's clear you see the Palestinians on a whole as some sort of blood thirsty group, whilst totally ignoring that there are people on both sides who want nothing more than either side to be gone and also that there are people on both who want to see a future of peace in two separate states. Your views about the Palestinians despite never going there or interacting them is so skewed that its hard to have a reasonable discussion with you.