Other people's shoes.

[sparklyrabbits]

The Question of Palestine.

I am no expert in the conflict but I found this brief video from the United Nations an interesting, brief overview of what happened in 1948.

Putting aside the needs of the Jewish people after WW2, I couldn't help but put myself in the shoes of the Palestinian people. In the main, they have never received compensation for losing their homes or even an acknowledgement or apology from the international community in regards to what they lost.

I spent some time living in Egypt in the naughties and met an elderly Palestinian man who still wore the key to his home in Palestine on a chain around his neck. He is probably long gone now and I doubt he was ever able to return. I didn't know huge amounts about the conflict at the time.

I recently read the book ' Searching For Fatima' by Ghada Karmi who was a Palestinian living in Jerusalem in 1948 and the years leading up to being forced to leave her home. Her family were quite Middle Class and had a very nice life in a villa, good education etc. They lost it all and a Jewish family moved into their home. They thought leaving was temporary until things were safe again.
Putting aside anything that has happen since but moving back in a time machine to 1948, if I was in their shoes, I don't think I would ever get over this. I can't imagine becoming a refugee knowing that someone else was living in my home, sitting in my garden etc. I wouldn't care what religion they were -the hatred and anger would be real.

I have always been interested in the Holocaust and have been to several cities that had prewar Jewish communities. I have always had huge amounts of sympathy and cannot imagine how you rebuild your life after what they suffered. I have now started reading 'Friendly Fire' by Ami Ayalon who is an Israeli and ex head of the Israeli Shin Bet. I've not finished it yet but an excellent read.

His father moved to Palestine in the 1930's from Romania and lived in a Kibbutz. His father was treated like an outsider in Romania as a Jewish person and never felt like he belonged. It was interesting to hear his story and attempt to put myself in his shoes and why he felt his future was in Palestine. He speaks about the education he received at school about Israel and comments that it would skip from the history as per the Torah and then jump a couple of thousand years to heroes circa 1948.

He also writes about the dehumanisation of the Palestinians, the behaviour of the settlers and the changes that need to happen if Israel is to have a future. More importantly, he talks about the need for empathy for the Palestinians. I've not completed the book yet but would be interested if anyone else has read this book but don't want this post to go down the path of talking about current events in regards to Hamas and the IDF and atrocities.

Literally look at the news (any source you like) from TODAY about the arsenal of weapons found in Al Shifa hospital maternity wing. That’s one example.
Are you seriously denying this!? Is that wilful ignorance or…? I don’t even know how to respond to that…

Again, look at any news source you trust about Hamas role in the distribution of aid. How are you choosing to deny and defend this stuff? Wild.

yes Netanyahu needs to go. The majority of Israel would agree with you, and were literally in the middle of protesting him before a terrorist state committed a major atrocity against them and forced them to have to mobilise with the shitty leadership they have.

you have entirely missed my point by calling for ‘proof’ re Hamas. Funny how my condemnation of Hamas means I ‘obviously don’t humanise Palestinians’. There’s nothing in what I said that could lead you to deduce this unless it is indeed YOU who conflates Palestinians with their leadership.

you seem confused at best.

Trust me, I am not confused. Wilful ignorance? You couldn't be so far from the truth.
Unless it has been verified by independent organisations then any information coming out of Gaza from the IDF and from Hamas is to be taking with a pinch of salt. It is called critical thinking.
Again, look at any news source you trust about Hamas role in the distribution of aid. How are you choosing to deny and defend this stuff? Wild.
I trust this source, recognized as one of the most trusted news organisation. Do you?
Destruction, lawlessness and red tape hobble aid as Gazans go hungry | Reuters
a terrorist state
Hamas is a terrorist organisation, not a state.
There’s nothing in what I said that could lead you to deduce this unless it is indeed YOU who conflates Palestinians with their leadership.
I beg to differ on that point but then again, I understand the difference between a state and a terrorist organisation.

Correct

For a thread where I think the initial hope had been to encourage empathy, there's remarkably little empathy and a lot of hatred and victim-blaming. Sorry, @sparklyrabbits , thanks for trying.

You say that like OP didn't start off with an awful lot of antagonism.

Yup, it's all History. The Palestinians should just accept the loss of their homeland,
signed away by European colonialists (Sykes-Picot), furthered by a body that did not have the authority to do it (the U.N. General Assembly). It's really interesting, I guess the Slaves should have just accepted their fates, I mean they got food and board.

Thankfully the racist post you were responding to has been deleted but thank you for showing your true colours

And your solution going forward?

Two state solution, Israel stop occupying Gaza and the west bank and controlling their borders. Hamas, Netanyahu and his government out. A complete overhaul of the IDF because they are racist murderers and cannot be trusted not to kill innocent civilians would be a start.

So what is the alternative? Raping, torturing, murdering and mutilating their neighbours for ever? Firing rockets at their neighbours forever? At what point is building a compelling future better than clinging to entrenched hatred and historical grievances?

Let’s all keep killing each other. Forever.

Sorry, but it is ridiculous.

People have had to accept loss of life, loss of family, loss of property, loss of liberty, loss of wealth, loss of their homeland since the beginning of time.

There has been no country or peoples who have not experienced this or been affected by it. This is one of the worst parts of being humans. This is what humans do to each other.

Is it right? No. Is there any really justice for people? Absolutely not.

But in order for our children to live in peace, and to build a better future for them in the hope that our future generations will flourish, we have to move on. Even “the slaves” that you mention.

There was no real justice to be had for anyone in Europe at the end of WW2, however we collectively put our efforts into creating one the longest period of peace Europe has even seen, and it has allowed the people of Europe to thrive. There has been no real justice for anyone in any atrocity ever - Rwanda, Cambodia, the Balkans and all recent conflicts. What kind of justice do you think is to be had here for the people of Palestine?

This situation is just so futile. Israel isn’t going anywhere. Every poll I have read shows that the majority of Palestinian’s do not and will not acknowledge Israel and want all of the land returned to them. Land that they have not lived on for generations. What can be done? I think even in 100 years time the situation will remain exactly the same due to the entrenched hatred and clinging to historical grievances.

I think some people are forgetting that it's not just a historical grievance as Israel in the present are still continuing to steal Palestinian land

I mean this was only last week, largest Palestinian land grab since 1993

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/

How will a two state solution work when the majority of Palestinian’s, when polled, say that they do not support a two state solution? That they want all of the land returned?

How do you get Hamas out when recent polls show a majority of Palestinian’s currently support Hamas.

Getting Netanyahu out is easy, most of Israel want him out anyway and the IDF present the same issues that all armies in the world have.

Is your solution then forcing a two state solution on the people of Gaza and the West Bank? Who will force the two state solution? Not Israel, so UN peacekeepers then? How will they protect themselves from attacks and violence in response to forcing something on people that they don’t want?

I’m not forgetting anything. Can we please not kid ourselves here. We all know the land in question is all of the land. That the grievance here is the land that was “taken” historically.

As you can see from the last 20 years the theft of Palestinian land by Israel has drastically increased. This is ongoing trauma for the Palestinians. Its not something that's in the past.

I personally want the full implementation of resolution 181 which to date still has not been fulfilled.

It still does not give the Palestinians justice, but its the bare minimum and the land would allow the right of return for the descendants of those that were ethnically cleansed.

The Americans need to stay as far away from any negotiations as they have never acted in good faith and are complicit in what's happening today.

Barring that, the young people who have watched what's happened to Gaza live right now, will be tomorrow's politicians in a few years. How will they act? As the influence and power of America wanes.

Netanyahu seemingly wants some sort of regional conflict, so perhaps this will be solved if the Israel vs Hezbollah conflict kicks off and there's a 3 front war.

All I do know is that there can be no peace without justice, because the descendants of the oppressed will never go away quietly.

Why in your response are are you only focusing on the Palestinians not wanting a two state solution? current Israeli government has made it clear they don't want it either and are currently looking at occupying Gaza.
The only way forward is dialogue and both parties coming to the table to negotiate, for countries like Iran, US and UK to stop selling arms to either side, I don't see any alternative to bring about peace the current situation has not worked.
How do you get Hamas out when recent polls show a majority of Palestinian’s currently support Hamas.
It would be part of the negotiations, and I am not sure what poll you are referring to but I don't know how a population currently being bombed and starved to death are in any realistic head space to decide on anything.

Is your solution then forcing a two state solution on the people of Gaza and the West Bank? Who will force the two state solution?
No one should force anything on anyone that's not how peace negotiations work.

If you don't think any of this could work what is your suggestion? Because there has to be a solution to this it can't go on as it is

That the grievance here is the land that was “taken” historically.
So the current illegal settlements are not stirring the pot in any way? Give over. Name one other community of people that would roll over if people were illegally taking their homes and land?

@NotSoBigCrocodile how would you feel if armed men evicted you from your home, tonight? Would you be ok with that, or would you maybe want someone to get you your home back and bring those men to justice?

Exactly, 700,000 or 10% of Israelis today are illegal settlers and it is quickly growing, this isnt a small side issue. It baffles me how people expect Palestinians to smile and say I hope you love living here as much as I did ❤️ as illegal settlers throw them out of their homes. People on mumsnet go batshit when someone walks across their gardens but Palestinians are meant to shake hands and say 'fair play' as their homes are taken?

I don’t really agree with you about never getting over it. I think the extent to which people are able to ‘get over’ being displaced depends on whether they are able to build a new life elsewhere. Displacement of people happens all the time and mostly they, and certainly their children and grandchildren, are able to move on successfully. If you look at the Jews expelled from Middle Eastern countries in the last century, most of them have successfully integrated in Israel or elsewhere. I would imagine some would prefer to return but as far as I’m aware there is no political movement pushing for it. The Palestinian case is different because even families who left generations ago still feel aggrieved. I imagine this would not be the case if a two-state solution had been hammered out, even with no right of return.

Why won’t they go away quietly? Think about the partition of India - much violence and injustice, but the vast majority of descendants of those involved have moved on, with only some specific areas still in dispute. I think the barrier to moving on is the lack of a Palestinian state.

I suspect that calls for the Palestinians to 'move on' because of the length of time which has passed since 1948 ring rather hollow, since the rationale for establishing the state of Israel in Palestine was the Jewish people's much more attenuated historical connection with the land. If a thousand years doesn't extinguish their claim, why should the Palestinians treat 1948 or even 1967 as ancient history?

Or, for some Palestinians, yesterday?

"Oh, you got your farm stolen and all your possessions trashed yesterday? Come on now, move on, you're living in the past, man."