Other people's shoes.

[sparklyrabbits]

The Question of Palestine.

I am no expert in the conflict but I found this brief video from the United Nations an interesting, brief overview of what happened in 1948.

Putting aside the needs of the Jewish people after WW2, I couldn't help but put myself in the shoes of the Palestinian people. In the main, they have never received compensation for losing their homes or even an acknowledgement or apology from the international community in regards to what they lost.

I spent some time living in Egypt in the naughties and met an elderly Palestinian man who still wore the key to his home in Palestine on a chain around his neck. He is probably long gone now and I doubt he was ever able to return. I didn't know huge amounts about the conflict at the time.

I recently read the book ' Searching For Fatima' by Ghada Karmi who was a Palestinian living in Jerusalem in 1948 and the years leading up to being forced to leave her home. Her family were quite Middle Class and had a very nice life in a villa, good education etc. They lost it all and a Jewish family moved into their home. They thought leaving was temporary until things were safe again.
Putting aside anything that has happen since but moving back in a time machine to 1948, if I was in their shoes, I don't think I would ever get over this. I can't imagine becoming a refugee knowing that someone else was living in my home, sitting in my garden etc. I wouldn't care what religion they were -the hatred and anger would be real.

I have always been interested in the Holocaust and have been to several cities that had prewar Jewish communities. I have always had huge amounts of sympathy and cannot imagine how you rebuild your life after what they suffered. I have now started reading 'Friendly Fire' by Ami Ayalon who is an Israeli and ex head of the Israeli Shin Bet. I've not finished it yet but an excellent read.

His father moved to Palestine in the 1930's from Romania and lived in a Kibbutz. His father was treated like an outsider in Romania as a Jewish person and never felt like he belonged. It was interesting to hear his story and attempt to put myself in his shoes and why he felt his future was in Palestine. He speaks about the education he received at school about Israel and comments that it would skip from the history as per the Torah and then jump a couple of thousand years to heroes circa 1948.

He also writes about the dehumanisation of the Palestinians, the behaviour of the settlers and the changes that need to happen if Israel is to have a future. More importantly, he talks about the need for empathy for the Palestinians. I've not completed the book yet but would be interested if anyone else has read this book but don't want this post to go down the path of talking about current events in regards to Hamas and the IDF and atrocities.

Exactly. Looking back constantly means it will go on and in and on.

After WW2 where there was huge loss of life all the countries had to move forward and now look at how Europe has recovered. Germany friends with former enemies.

It can be done in the middle East ... if people want to move forward to peace. Hamas obviously don't.

Hamas obviously don't.
Nor does the Israeli government.

I'm still a bit surprised that a post suggesting slavery is something from which survivors and their families should 'move on' hasn't been deleted.

I don’t know, because I’ve never been in that position. I would probably do whatever was best for my children however, and if that meant building a new life somewhere else, I would do that.

There is no real justice to be had in this life, and I don’t consider the raping women and brutalising of children to be justice in any way.

My ancestors had no choice but to leave Ireland, because the alternative was death by starvation. They came to Scotland where they were discriminated against and, as a result, lived in poverty that is unimaginable to me and which resulted in their children dying needlessly and unnecessarily. Their surviving children were then sent to be slaughtered in the first and second world war. My family is scarred by resultant trauma and alcoholism. So much loss and so much pain.

The only justice they will ever have is me and my children living well, and we do.

Most people alive today have ancestors who were displaced at some point. It was/is quite common.

What would you start your new life with?

It's not 'looking back' when it is still happening. When 10% of Israelis are illegal settlers with that number rising every day it isn't ancient history. It is happening now.

Like everyone else who finds themselves in such positions, whatever I had.

Women in domestic abuse situations need to start their lives afresh with their children all the time.

I can’t believe that is what you took from my post.

It never fails to amaze me the lengths some people will go to, to shut down people saying things that they don’t agree with.

Don’t kid yourself that that is the land that is in question here. It is the land that was “taken” historically that is the issue. It’s the Jewish people having their own state that was and still is the problem.

Most people who have been in that situation don't get over it overnight. They may also attempt to seek compensation or reparations for what they've experienced. In most places, legal systems exist to (at least in theory) process and reach resolutions.

Most people I've met who have been made homeless and destitute haven't moved on from that trauma as quickly as you're suggesting you would.

That may be the land you're talking about, but it's not the land everyone is talking about.

I'm not going to lengths to 'shut down' anything. Just expressing a bit of surprise that it hadn't been picked up for moderation, given that the general consensus seems to be that slavery was and is a bad thing and that it has caused generational trauma.

Most people I've met who have been made homeless and
destitute haven't moved on from that trauma as quickly as you're suggesting you would.

What? I just explained the trauma that has been passed down via the generations to me from my ancestors who were forced to leave Ireland during the famine. Where have I suggested that people move on from their trauma quickly?

Moving on with your life as best you can in any given situation and moving on from trauma in your life are two entirely different things. I have referenced the former throughout all of my posts. I don’t expect people to move on from trauma until many generations down the line.

It would be helpful if you actually read my posts rather than jumping to the first thing you can point to as being offensive to somehow try and undermine what I actually saying.

You are being ridiculous now. Gazans can't go anywhere their borders are controlled, they have no passports, they physically cannot leave Gaxa. Governments, including Ireland are trying to get Gazans with Irish citizenship out and Israel are blocking their requests. You are being unbelievably patronising and arrogant in your suggestions for people to just suck it up and move on

@NotSoBigCrocodile so why are you expecting Palestinians to move on from their trauma today?

I don’t even know what you are talking about.

The person who initially mentioned “the slaves” said just that. It was vague. I have no idea what she was talking about and would welcome clarification. But my response was that even enslaved peoples “moved on” with their lives upon liberation, as in practically, not emotionally.

Of course slavery is bad. Of course it causes generational trauma. I just described generational trauma in my own lineage.

Really, I have no idea what you are so “surprised” about. What exactly did I say that was so offensive to you?

We can't discuss Palestine here. The people supporting a genocide can't cope with context, history nor nuance. People who want to research the Nakba can do so elsewhere, but MN isn't the place where anyone can express empathy for Palestinians and their State.

To move on from their trauma? No. It’s impossible.

To move on from historical grievances and build a compelling future for their children? Yes.

To move on from yesterday's 'grievance'? Today's 'grievance'?

To move on from historical grievances and build a compelling future for their children? Yes.
How? When they are an occupied territory with their borders controlled, when Israel control how much food gets in, when they and their children cannot leave to start afresh anywhere, you are talking about something that is not possible for Gazans under their current conditions

This thread is crazy!

I wasn’t talking about Gazans.

I was talking about an entirely fictional scenario posed to me.

You are being unbelievably patronising and arrogant in your suggestions for people to just suck it up and move on.

Yes, you’re right. Let’s just keep killing each other forever then.

Well then you've completely lost me if you're talking about fictional non relatable scenarios. I agree this thread is crazy as we try and follow your train of thought.....

That's my fault. I suggested thinking about what they'd do if evicted from their home at gunpoint. Turns out, they'd be fine.

@Scirocco has been posing fictional scenarios to me.

Take it up with them. I’m simply answering a question I’ve been asked.

I wouldn’t be fine. But I’d survive. What other option would I have?