Other people's shoes.

[sparklyrabbits]

The Question of Palestine.

I am no expert in the conflict but I found this brief video from the United Nations an interesting, brief overview of what happened in 1948.

Putting aside the needs of the Jewish people after WW2, I couldn't help but put myself in the shoes of the Palestinian people. In the main, they have never received compensation for losing their homes or even an acknowledgement or apology from the international community in regards to what they lost.

I spent some time living in Egypt in the naughties and met an elderly Palestinian man who still wore the key to his home in Palestine on a chain around his neck. He is probably long gone now and I doubt he was ever able to return. I didn't know huge amounts about the conflict at the time.

I recently read the book ' Searching For Fatima' by Ghada Karmi who was a Palestinian living in Jerusalem in 1948 and the years leading up to being forced to leave her home. Her family were quite Middle Class and had a very nice life in a villa, good education etc. They lost it all and a Jewish family moved into their home. They thought leaving was temporary until things were safe again.
Putting aside anything that has happen since but moving back in a time machine to 1948, if I was in their shoes, I don't think I would ever get over this. I can't imagine becoming a refugee knowing that someone else was living in my home, sitting in my garden etc. I wouldn't care what religion they were -the hatred and anger would be real.

I have always been interested in the Holocaust and have been to several cities that had prewar Jewish communities. I have always had huge amounts of sympathy and cannot imagine how you rebuild your life after what they suffered. I have now started reading 'Friendly Fire' by Ami Ayalon who is an Israeli and ex head of the Israeli Shin Bet. I've not finished it yet but an excellent read.

His father moved to Palestine in the 1930's from Romania and lived in a Kibbutz. His father was treated like an outsider in Romania as a Jewish person and never felt like he belonged. It was interesting to hear his story and attempt to put myself in his shoes and why he felt his future was in Palestine. He speaks about the education he received at school about Israel and comments that it would skip from the history as per the Torah and then jump a couple of thousand years to heroes circa 1948.

He also writes about the dehumanisation of the Palestinians, the behaviour of the settlers and the changes that need to happen if Israel is to have a future. More importantly, he talks about the need for empathy for the Palestinians. I've not completed the book yet but would be interested if anyone else has read this book but don't want this post to go down the path of talking about current events in regards to Hamas and the IDF and atrocities.

There is an anti-Semitism that lurks behind much of the faux compassion for the Palestinians.

Why are you incapable of understanding why the majority of people are absolutely disgusted and devastated to see children starving to death, innocent civilians dying in their tens of thousands and millions displaced? No the only reason we would feel any humanity for these people is due to anti-semitism. Thankfully the majority of people are capable of feeling compassion for people without it including hate for another. Clearly you are not.

Did you actually read the thread? I don’t have a problem with existence of Israel.

I do believe though that the Jewish people having their own state is a huge part of the problem and one of the reasons this conflict has been going on as long as it has.

Clearly, is it not a problem to me. But it has been a problem to people since 1948 and it is still a problem in 2024.

I’ve not said what you think I have, I’m just being honest as to what the nature of the grievances are here.

This.

Some people don't give a thought to others being killed in Yeman, Sudan, etc., that are being slaughtered in some cases hundreds of thousands, because its Muslim people slaughtering Muslim people. Not a peep when that happens, interestingly 🙄🤔just ignore and move on.

This is the kind of bad faith and cynical response that defenders of Israel continually have to face. It’s a special kind of chutzpah to breezily dismiss that anti-Semitism motivates a great deal of the animus towards Israel. Anti-Semitism is rife, among the Palestinian people, among the left in the West - it isn’t some fringe belief that only Hamas hold. It just doesn’t wash to explain anti-Semitism as simply compassion towards innocent people.

We should ALL feel such compassion as well as recognise that the Palestinians have political rights they are entitled to - such as their own state. But we cannot achieve this while one side refuses to recognises the rights of other.

@CaterhamReconstituted

As evident on this thread and elsewhere on this board, Islamophobia and hatred of Muslims is also widespread. Yet somehow people don't care about that.

We should ALL feel such compassion as well as recognise that the Palestinians have political rights they are entitled to - such as their own state.

Yet you accused people of faux compassion for Palestinians as a form of anti-semitism.

But we cannot achieve this while one side refuses to recognises the rights of other.
The majority of posters on these threads recognise the state of Israel and have NEVER said any different. It is you that cannot understand how people can recognise the right of Israel to exist and the right of Palestinians to exist

More bad faith babble. Both Jews and Arabs have rights to that land. I’ve said I believe the Palestinians have a right to a state. Yet anti-Semitism is the main reason preventing this.

Personally, I think occupation and ethnic cleansing might have something to do with it.

More bad faith babble
@CaterhamReconstituted
Didn't take you long to resort to personal insults, you've no respect for me as a poster so I'll leave it there

I haven’t seen that.

I have seen people be critical of Islam, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Similar to Christianity, Islam is not a minority have both have incredibly bloody and dark histories.

I have a problem with all religions. I grew up Catholic but have long turned my back on that. For obvious reasons that I am more than happy to discuss, but don’t want to derail if I don’t need to.

It is quite clear that Islamic fundamentalism plays a massive role in what is going on. The same radicalisation that goes on in the west of young men to go on and commit atrocities so too happens in Gaza. There is no end of young, traumatised men to brainwash and send on to their deaths in Gaza.

I would ask what you think is a realistic solution?

A two state solution is not realistic because the majority of the peoples of Gaza and The West Bank, when polled, have repeatedly said that they do not recognise Israel and that all the land in the region belongs to them.

So what is a realistic solution?

We all know Israel isn’t going anywhere. 100 years on, there is still a refusal to allow the Jewish people to have their own state on those lands. Despite all the bloodshed. It is Islamic fundamentalism that will allow this to go on for
another 100 years.

Personally, I think occupation and ethnic cleansing might have something to do with it.

Sure. But considering this has been ongoing for 100 years, we should be asking how the situation has gotten to this point in the first place. Entrenched hatred spanning generations would be the answer. The only reason the situation is not in reverse is because Israel is the greater power militarily. Not through lack of trying, though.

You seriously think Muslims aren't a minority?

Are you having a laugh?

There are 2 billion Muslims in the world. Roughly the same amount of Christians.

There are 15 million Jews in the world.

Who are the minority?

In the UK yes, a minority by population, though greater numbers than jewish, sikh hindus, and buddhists combined as religious persuasion goes.
Worldwide no.
In the middle east, definitely not.

In this country, I am in a minority group. In France, I would be in a minority group. In the US, I would be in a minority group. Etc.

There are places in the world in which I would not be. Just as for most groups.

The existence of one minority group does not negate the existence of other minority groups.

What I have experienced on this board is a disappointingly widespread casual use of Islamophobic speech, dismissal of the rights and basic humanity of Palestinians and Muslims in general, disregard for the experiences of Palestinians and Muslims, and repeated approval of actions which international experts consider probable war crimes to the extent that there is an investigation into whether the legal tests for genocide are met.

Everytime I read some of the racist, Islamophobic, dehumanising Palestinian posts my thoughts go to you, the views are so entrenched they don't even see it. I hope you know there are more people that don't have those views then the overpowering few that do

It certainly is an issue, and a very pertinent one. Fortunately, a large chunk of the Israeli population recognise that, hence the anger directed towards Netanyahu before the awful events of October. Also, why do you keep putting ‘taken’ in inverted commas? It’s not like it’s up for debate. It was taken. End of.

Thank you. It is hard, but I owe it to the people I and the rest of the Ummah have lost and are losing to try to speak up now they cannot. I owe it to my DC to try to make this world less full of hate for them.

Taken or given?

Can you please explain to me what I have said that Islamophobic speech?

Can you please explain to me what I have said that is racist, Islamophobic or dehumanising?

That post was directed at @Scirocco I didn't quote or name you.
It isn't referencing one specific post it is the general rhetoric of Muslims/ Palestinians = bad and anti semitic with no compassion at all for the fact that they are currently being persecuted, their children starving, tens of thousands of them have been murdered and their homeland destroyed beyond recognition. Ask yourself, if this was happening to your fellow countrymen and your homeland and there were people that blamed you for it and sort of deserved it would you surmise that they hated you and hated your people? I'm not sure there is any other way to take it?
To be specific to your post you suggest that islamic fundamentalism will allow this to go on for another 100 years with absolutely no recognition of Israel's role in the conflict at all.

Allegations of racism directed against Palestinians on this thread are unconvincing. It would be helpful to understand specific examples of where this has apparently happened.

What has happened are examples of people maintaining some kind of proportion about Israel’s actions in Gaza and recognition that they face a genocidal threat that has the face of jihadism.

I don’t believe that anybody who defends Israel’s actions (on the whole - recognising there may be examples of misconduct) somehow “dehumanise” Palestinians. I believe that Israel has the right to exist and to defend its existence by force - never again will the Jews be defenceless as they are lined up by death squads - but I also recognise that Palestinians have political rights and I’ve not seen anyone deny that.

We are talking about Gaza, not about Iran and other countries.
What is happening in these countries are civil wars.
Gaza is being attacked by a foreign state, a mighty one at that, in turn of military capabilities.
You are not comparing like for like.
Not a peep? Well by all means, please start a thread about these countries. You obviously care about the plight of the civilians caught in the horrors of a civil war.

To be specific to your post you suggest that islamic fundamentalism will allow this to go on for another 100 years with absolutely no recognition of Israel's role in the conflict at all.

So, can I ask. Was that racist, Islamophobic or dehumanising? Because I do believe that Islamic fundamentalism plays a role in this conflict. As I’ve said, it is absolutely not the only issue, but it is an issue. It’s an issue faced all over the world - it’s not just confined to this region. And I don’t believe it is racist, Islamophobic or dehumanising to discuss that.

The reason I haven’t mentioned Israel’s role in the conflict is because that is all I read about here. And I don’t disagree, by the way. If I did disagree with what was being said about Israel’s role, I would be partaking in that discussion. I am
not. I just don’t see any discussion of the role played by Palestinian’s discussed or acknowledged ever. You can’t have a serious discussion on this by only speaking about 50% of the problem. It’s impossible.