Other people's shoes.

[sparklyrabbits]

The Question of Palestine.

I am no expert in the conflict but I found this brief video from the United Nations an interesting, brief overview of what happened in 1948.

Putting aside the needs of the Jewish people after WW2, I couldn't help but put myself in the shoes of the Palestinian people. In the main, they have never received compensation for losing their homes or even an acknowledgement or apology from the international community in regards to what they lost.

I spent some time living in Egypt in the naughties and met an elderly Palestinian man who still wore the key to his home in Palestine on a chain around his neck. He is probably long gone now and I doubt he was ever able to return. I didn't know huge amounts about the conflict at the time.

I recently read the book ' Searching For Fatima' by Ghada Karmi who was a Palestinian living in Jerusalem in 1948 and the years leading up to being forced to leave her home. Her family were quite Middle Class and had a very nice life in a villa, good education etc. They lost it all and a Jewish family moved into their home. They thought leaving was temporary until things were safe again.
Putting aside anything that has happen since but moving back in a time machine to 1948, if I was in their shoes, I don't think I would ever get over this. I can't imagine becoming a refugee knowing that someone else was living in my home, sitting in my garden etc. I wouldn't care what religion they were -the hatred and anger would be real.

I have always been interested in the Holocaust and have been to several cities that had prewar Jewish communities. I have always had huge amounts of sympathy and cannot imagine how you rebuild your life after what they suffered. I have now started reading 'Friendly Fire' by Ami Ayalon who is an Israeli and ex head of the Israeli Shin Bet. I've not finished it yet but an excellent read.

His father moved to Palestine in the 1930's from Romania and lived in a Kibbutz. His father was treated like an outsider in Romania as a Jewish person and never felt like he belonged. It was interesting to hear his story and attempt to put myself in his shoes and why he felt his future was in Palestine. He speaks about the education he received at school about Israel and comments that it would skip from the history as per the Torah and then jump a couple of thousand years to heroes circa 1948.

He also writes about the dehumanisation of the Palestinians, the behaviour of the settlers and the changes that need to happen if Israel is to have a future. More importantly, he talks about the need for empathy for the Palestinians. I've not completed the book yet but would be interested if anyone else has read this book but don't want this post to go down the path of talking about current events in regards to Hamas and the IDF and atrocities.

Well, personally, in that situation, I'd probably contact the authorities to report home invasion and threat to life, maybe try to either have my family's property returned to us or obtain compensation so that I could rebuild my family's life.

Thank you for posting this OP. I will be giving these books a try. starting with friendly fire.

the only thing I wanted to mention (something I have not seen mentioned or discussed in the threads on this topic so far) is the dynamic nature of the population in any given area.. including Palestine.

people are sectioning the population as Arabs and Jews. which is quite misleading. if we are talking about genetics... People moved around the middle east, rulers came and went, invaders came and went. People married between different ethnicities and tribes. Some people moved out - the Jewish people went to Europe and then their genes mixed with Europeans. I am sure crusaders genes also mixed with arab/Jewish genes. if we did genetic testing, we would find Palestinians and Israelis have far more in common than they think.

if we think in terms of religion, we need to consider Judaism is the 'old religion', many Jews (israelis) converted to christianity/Islam when these religions appeared. therefore many of the Palestinians are the descendents of these Jewish ancestors anyway (let's not forget many Jews lived there before 1948 too and were not necessarily happy about the formation of Israel- the rabbi of Jerusalem strongly opposed it).

ultimately the whole thing is basically hogwash. made up by the powers that be (on both sides) at the time to further their political agendas. ultimately the common people are the ones that bear the suffering - neither people will be safe until they can accept each other.

It’s amazing, really, that Spain has any kind of stability today given the horrors that happened during the Spanish Civil War. They should still all be slaughtering each other in a quest for “justice”, judging by this thread. The fact that they “moved on” with their lives as best they could to bring all the violence, killing and unimaginable suffering to an end seems to be a concept that is not just offensive, but incomprehensible. But it does happen. It has always happened.

@NotSoBigCrocodile you're being obtuse and very dismissive of an ethnicity currently undergoing a genocide, literally as we speak the numbers are rising, over 33 000. Please have some respect.

Until there is a two state solution that is fair i can't see things drastically improving.
Palestinians have a right of self determination on their own land.

This is ridiculous now. I’m done with the fictional scenario that bears absolutely no relevance to this discussion.

This is the type of response any comment gets. No wonder nothing ever gets better.

Apparently they should just move on (somehow)... and then keep moving on until there's nowhere left to go...?

Wasn't aware Spain was an occupied territory. You're comparing apples and oranges
With regards to Spain there is still a lot of unrest in the Basque region

I don't think many people in Spain had their land illegally seized this year, either.

I wouldn't bother. You could mention any number of countries and some think gaza is the only people's to experience loss, trauma, and so perpetuated hatred is the way they see it.

Germany, lost and divided into 2 half's. Spain as you said. Yugoslavia, divided, renamed, genocide but the people want and enable peace.

Palestine, well hamas keep lobbing the missiles, looking back not forward, billions in aid and yet it feels wasted. If could be an amazing country if looking forward.

Northern Ireland looked forward to peace and both sides gave up for the bigger picture. Look at it now.

@AliceA2021 once again none of the countries you mention are occupied territories, the people have a state, have a passport, have control of their borders don't have people illegally settling on their land. You can keep dismissing us as irritants but we won't go away as children bring murdered and starving to death at the hands of Israel.

Northern Ireland looked forward to peace and both sides gave up for the bigger picture. Look at it now.
Not sure what you mean by "gave up" there was a peace agreement an agreement which means a border poll can be called and the country vote for what they want as in remain with Britain or become part of Ireland.

@AliceA2021 how can Palestine be an amazing country? It's occupied, with land being stolen by 'settlers' at this very time. The borders of the land meant to constitute a Palestinian state have been completely disregarded by another state.

In the examples you gave, reaching states of relative stability took years, a lot of blood, sweat and tears, and a willingness from all relevant parties to establish and respect (at least officially) a peace process and its outcome.

How would you feel if posters suggested Israel should just 'give up for the bigger picture'. Just put down their arms, move if needs be, people do it all of the time, it's no big deal. Why is it all on Palestinians?

How was it racist?

Totally missed the point. I'm not surprised so on and on with the hate then.

To the other poster 'gave up' as in laid down weapons and stopped fighting... for the greater good. Cannot imagine hamas doing that, they don't give a shit about Palestinian people, fodder for their 'cause' essentially hatred.... predictable really

Can you explain how I missed the point? There is post after post talking about how Palestinians should just 'give up', it's all history(even though it very much isn't and Israeli illegal settlers are chucking people out of their homes now, in the present), sure my family moved to Scotland and isn't it grand, domestic abuse victims do it all the time. So if this was a thread in reverse and it was full of post after post talking how Israel should just give up, its all ancient history, people move all of the time, why are they making such a fuss etc you think that that would be fine? It wouldn't be reported and posters wouldn't be outraged saying 'Are you denying Israels right to exist?'.

Name checking Northern Ireland in this context is ridiculous. To be comparable, Israel would have to withdraw troops, stop their siege in Gaza and agree to allow Palestinians to vote to choose to have their own state. I cant see that happening any time soon.

sure my family moved to Scotland and isn't it grand

This is a pretty vile comment to make in response to me talking about my ancestors being forced to leave Ireland during the famine, or what many consider to be a genocide. It certainly wasn’t grand, considering this is what I said:

My ancestors had no choice but to leave Ireland, because
the alternative was death by starvation. They came to Scotland where they were discriminated against and, as a
result, lived in poverty that is unimaginable to me and which
resulted in their children dying needlessly and unnecessarily.
Their surviving children were then sent to be slaughtered in
the first and second world war. My family is scarred by
resultant trauma and alcoholism. So much loss and so much
pain.

OK. Apologies. You came across to me as rather flippant about people facing the same. That is why I was flippant in my post. I'm sure you agree then that everything in our power should be done to make sure Palestinians stay in their homes in both the West Bank and Gaza. And that their trauma should be acknowledged and taken seriously by everyone.

I think the history of Israel is a tortuous one but it is fundamental to accept Israel exists as a sovereign country and will continue to exist. In some ways going back in history is unhelpful and it gives ammunition to those that would want to remove the Israeli state.

I can see how a thorough knowledge of both Israeli and Palestinian history could aid in allowing peace through an appreciation of both sides struggles. Currently though I don't know if this is the optimum time for peace and reconciliation relatively I was are in the midst of armed conflict.

we hope the conflict will end soon and there will be a more positive chapter to the Middle East.

Aha here it is, don’t have to probe too hard before people reveal themselves…. ‘The Jewish people’ having their own state is the problem? How dare they be given back the land they occupied since THE IRON AGE as an attempted solution to find ONE single safe place for them to live after almost successful attempts to eradicate them entirely in Europe and every other Middle Eastern country they lived in. Just get rid of the Jewish people and we are all cool?

you do realise Israel is made up of many more races and religions than Jewish people? But your issue with ‘Israel’ is ‘the Jews’ - thanks for just openly saying it rather than using fake compassion for Palestinians as a veil for what you really think.

View points like this are NOT how you humanise and empathise and achieve peace, and I think you know that, because that’s not actually the goal for many people in this discussion. The goal of Hamas js the eradication of the Jewish people and it seems many western people in support of them too.

shocking !

Agreed. There is an anti-Semitism that lurks behind much of the faux compassion for the Palestinians. The charges levelled against Israel - untrustworthiness, pulling the strings of world affairs, lust for the blood of children - were those levelled against the Jews. Anything other than saying that Israel is wicked is an illegitimate opinion and must be shut down, or characterised as “racist”. I can see who the real racists are.

Israel exists and has a right to exist as the historical homeland of the Jewish people. A two-state solution would enable both people to live on the land but this can only happen once the Palestinians accept that Israel has a right to exist and are willing to constructively engage to achieve this.

@Muthaofcats you do realise that @NotSoBigCrocodile was defending Israel and it's right to exist?

Quite, they are so hellbent on finding anti-semitism in everything they posted without rtft properly to realise what the poster was talking referring to

@Muthaofcats @CaterhamReconstituted if you go back through the discussion you will see that pro Palestinian posters were talking about the recent illegal occupations and land grabs and @NotSoBigCrocodile was denying this saying the conflict was to do with land taken in the past.
I think an apology is required for accusing people in the wrong for anti-semitism.
Aha here it is, don’t have to probe too hard before people reveal themselves…. ‘
Right back at you