Other people's shoes.

[sparklyrabbits]

The Question of Palestine.

I am no expert in the conflict but I found this brief video from the United Nations an interesting, brief overview of what happened in 1948.

Putting aside the needs of the Jewish people after WW2, I couldn't help but put myself in the shoes of the Palestinian people. In the main, they have never received compensation for losing their homes or even an acknowledgement or apology from the international community in regards to what they lost.

I spent some time living in Egypt in the naughties and met an elderly Palestinian man who still wore the key to his home in Palestine on a chain around his neck. He is probably long gone now and I doubt he was ever able to return. I didn't know huge amounts about the conflict at the time.

I recently read the book ' Searching For Fatima' by Ghada Karmi who was a Palestinian living in Jerusalem in 1948 and the years leading up to being forced to leave her home. Her family were quite Middle Class and had a very nice life in a villa, good education etc. They lost it all and a Jewish family moved into their home. They thought leaving was temporary until things were safe again.
Putting aside anything that has happen since but moving back in a time machine to 1948, if I was in their shoes, I don't think I would ever get over this. I can't imagine becoming a refugee knowing that someone else was living in my home, sitting in my garden etc. I wouldn't care what religion they were -the hatred and anger would be real.

I have always been interested in the Holocaust and have been to several cities that had prewar Jewish communities. I have always had huge amounts of sympathy and cannot imagine how you rebuild your life after what they suffered. I have now started reading 'Friendly Fire' by Ami Ayalon who is an Israeli and ex head of the Israeli Shin Bet. I've not finished it yet but an excellent read.

His father moved to Palestine in the 1930's from Romania and lived in a Kibbutz. His father was treated like an outsider in Romania as a Jewish person and never felt like he belonged. It was interesting to hear his story and attempt to put myself in his shoes and why he felt his future was in Palestine. He speaks about the education he received at school about Israel and comments that it would skip from the history as per the Torah and then jump a couple of thousand years to heroes circa 1948.

He also writes about the dehumanisation of the Palestinians, the behaviour of the settlers and the changes that need to happen if Israel is to have a future. More importantly, he talks about the need for empathy for the Palestinians. I've not completed the book yet but would be interested if anyone else has read this book but don't want this post to go down the path of talking about current events in regards to Hamas and the IDF and atrocities.

How do you know that I’ve never interacted with Palestinians? I’m referring to ascendant attitudes and beliefs among a group of people in a particular context - and there is plenty of evidence to support the depth of anti-Semitism in the Palestinian Territories. This really cannot be denied.

I agree with a two-state solution, as I’ve stated.

I think it’s a mistake to say that people in either Gaza or Israel are ‘just like you or me’, assuming that you are British, as I am. Actually there are huge cultural differences between Britain and the Middle East and I think a lot of westerners would be surprised at how normal and widespread antisemitism is in some middle-eastern countries. That’s not to say Palestinians would personally want to kill Jews but as the surveys show, they are likely to support a government that does not accept the existence of the Jewish state. This is why @CaterhamReconstituted is saying that anti-semitism is a barrier to a two-state solution.

I'm afraid I can't agree with you about people not being the same.

Israel are operating an apartheid system in the West Bank creating 'sterile zones' that prevents Palestinians walking down the street because of who they are but that posters out here calling the people that are subject to that apartheid system the problem? The ones deemed too unclean to enter Israels 'sterile zones' and walk down the same streets as them are the problem? That poster is going to specifically call them out as antisemitic but not comment on the people who won't let them share the same streets and we are supposed to believe she is posting in good faith. Nah

Are you saying that anti-semitism is not an issue? Or that it is an issue but Israeli policies are more important as a cause of Palestinians not accepting a Jewish state?

Leave it, it's a deliberate (failing) attempt to rewrite the history as being due to antisemitism as opposed to colonialism/ethnic cleansing.

As long as the Palestinians can be painted as hateful racists, any actions that the Israeli government takes can be excused.

Funny how all the churches that the IDF destroyed in Gaza are ignored!

@Scirocco I watched this documentary previously, it explains why so many people are "blind", we've grown up surrounded by popular art that caricatures Muslims and shapes our opinions.

"This ground-breaking 2006 documentary based on Jack Shaheen's acclaimed book of the same title critically examines a long line of degrading images of Arabs in Hollywood and U.S. popular culture -- from Bedouin bandits and submissive maidens to sinister sheikhs and gun-wielding "terrorists." Shaheen serves as navigator and tour guide through this racist virtual landscape of dehumanizing images and storylines, along the way offering devastating insights into where they came from, why they resonated with special force at particular moments in U.S. history, and why they matter so much to this day."

I'm saying that I'm saying I know for a fact due to the apartheid system Israel have created in the West Bank that there is deep issues with Palestinians. Posters stating that 90% of Palestinians in the West Bank are antisemites and are the problem and that Israel has no choice but to occupy them because of this with absolutely nothing to back up their stance don't strike me as someone who cares about injustice like they claim to.

People are in denial about the extent of anti-Semitism in the Palestinian Territories. This denial is a form of Western narcissism - the idea that what we believe and what we value must be shared by all other peoples in the world. People are equal in their inherent human worth but people don’t always believe in and value the same things. To say that the Palestinians are simply peace-merchants who only wish to live quietly next to their Jewish neighbours is completely delusional.

That is not to say that Palestinians don’t have legitimate grievances or that there aren’t hardships to life under occupation. But we cannot get to a two-state solution until both sides are committed to it and recognise the rights of the other.

And Israel is not a “colonial” power. The land of Israel is the historic homeland of the Jewish people.

This is really disingenuous.

Do you really believe that the Palestinians object to Israeli people due to their religion, or because they and their grandparents were expelled from their homes - often by force - and disposed because they were of the wrong religion?

@CaterhamReconstituted the creation of Israel involved the violent dispossession of many Palestinians and Israel is still the occupying power over Palestinian land. These are facts that cannot be ignored. It's certainly not as black and white as you make it out to be. I am not anti-Israel in that i don't accept Israel as a state. It is there now and I believe that the only way forward is to look for solutions forward towards two states.
I think this is a more nuanced approach than yours.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/is-israel-a-colonial-state-we-must-simplify-the-answer/

Why is it disingenuous? I’ve made the point about the appalling anti-Semitism in the Palestinian Territories, for which there is no doubt. Of course there is a history to the Israel/Palestine question that has fermented hatred too. The Palestinians have legitimate grievances and the creation of Israel involved the displacement of 750,000 Arabs. Anti-Semitism is not just related to the creation of the state of Israel, it is an ancient hatred.

But I agree with what you’ve put there

@CaterhamReconstituted then you would agree with this from the article and the significance of the grievance of the Palestinians at this current time who are still suffering under these circumstances.

There’s no denying the colonial nature of the occupation. A state controlling a territory outside its borders, seizing land, and settling it with its own citizens who enjoy infinitely more rights than the oppressed local population – this is textbook colonialism, very rarely seen in the modern world.

Of course the Palestinians have legitimate grievances and it is matter of fact that the Palestinian Territories are under Israeli occupation. I don’t agree that Israel are colonialists. The land of Israel is the historic homeland of the Jewish people. The state of Palestine has also never been formally defined and agreed upon as the Arabs have rejected a state many times. I believe there should be two states but this needs to be formally agreed with clear borders established. This can only happen when the Palestinians accept Israel’s right to exist.

@CaterhamReconstituted when I am talking about current day colonialism, then as said above it is in reference to the illegal occupation of the west bank. It might be a bitter pill to swallow but that is what it is.
This will only end when there are two states and not only when the Palestinians accept Israels right to exist but also when the Israelis accept the Palestinians right to exist. The acceptance should be something you expect from both sides, not just one.
And as said previously both Israelis and Palestinians are not groups who share one simple black and white view. Within the societies there are people with a range of views, from those who hate one another to those who are tired of the constant cycle of violence and only want peace.
It would be unfair to label either side as being unaccepting of the other as a whole.

@CaterhamReconstituted I believe there should be two states but this needs to be formally agreed with clear borders established.

we have many different view points but I am glad this is something in common that we both agree upon.

wow

...okay?

My family were "middle class" too, I suppose.

They were from Iraq, Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt where they had lived for hundreds of years after being expelled, like many Jews, from their birthplace of Israel. They had lived in relative safety and comfort, but, of course, they were dhimmi. Which meant they were banned, as Jews, from living in certain places, doing certain jobs, acting in government, bearing arms, testifying in court against a Muslim or wearing fancy or expensive clothes - amongst other things.

It was, of course, apartheid, in the most obvious way, but is reframed nowadays as some kind of benevolent generosity that the Muslims allowed the Jews to live. Whilst I harbour no animosity of any kind for what occurred before WWI, the truth is - Jews and Christians were conquered by Muslims who then subjugated them as second class citizens under law. This is a simple fact. They were also subjected to dozens and dozens of pogroms and expulsions. Things were never fair, nor equal.

Anyhoo, despite that, my family were lucky. One of my grandparents owned a little shop in Lebanon and her father was a well respected Rabbi. Another actually worked in the royal palace in Egypt as a teacher to the Pharoah's children.

And every one of them was ethnically cleansed out of their home by antisemitic Muslims; first in Iraq, the Egypt, then Lebanon. After years of horrific treatment - from street lynchings to anti-Jewish laws and daily broadcasts on the national radio stations by the Nazi party (who by the way literally TRAVELLED to these places to "train" the local Muslims on how to get people to hate Jews), they were stripped of everything they owned and booted out of the only country they had ever known.

Despite being full citizens of those places, they were Jewish, and thus did not count as equal to other citizens - they were considered foreigners in their own home country as has been the case for Jews since time began. They had no UNRWA, no foreign aid payments and no tears shed for them - they had to begin again in a country several thousand miles away they'd never set foot in before.

They have never had a cent of compensation, and neither has any of the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were similarly ethically cleansed from their homes in the middle east. The land they lost in total was 33 times the size of Israel and not a cent was ever paid to them for it. The wealth they lost was astronomical and not a penny was ever paid back. It was all taken, and that was that.

I never once heard them moan or whinge, they just moved forward. No they did not keep the keys to the homes that were once their which were taken from them or navel gaze for 76 years. They remembered their young years very fondly, and moved forwards. They wish no harm on the citizens of Lebanon, Iraq or Egypt. It's hardly their fault. They have no desire to kill anybody to "take back" what was once Grandmas in 1940.

Every single one of them was stripped of every single thing they owned, deprived of their nationality and booted out. And posts like yours absolutely infuriate me.

I harbour zero ill will towards Muslims, but this was a conflict, from the beginning of Muslim supremacy. They swept through the lands of the levant, persia and wider and took over the indigenous lands and subjugated all the people's who once lived there. Then made them dhimmi and reigned supreme.

Do I judge them for that?

Not really - frankly back then everyone was doing it!

Then when Jews were awarded the entirely fair right to autonomy in just a tiny part of the land which was once theirs, the fact is they didn't like the idea of Jews running the place. And therefore a war began which has lasted 76 years.

Were some Arab Muslims expelled from their homes? Yes, but these are the facts you are missing:

1. Very few owned a damn thing! At that time more than half the land was owned by the Ottoman empire and half the remainder was owned by rich Syrians and Egyptians who didn't even live there!

2. During the Ottoman empire, and even partly during the British mandate, Jewish people were banned from buying land in Israel. They were forcibly stopped from habiting the land of their natural identity because Arabs (sorry) frankly did not like the idea of Jews being in large numbers on their own land.

3. Those who did live in their indigenous home, were forced to live as dhimmi, like all other non Muslims - making self determination actually very important. Had they been given a right to live freely and equally on the land which was historically their own then they never would have needed an independent state to begin with!

4. The conflict both before and after the foundation of Israel as a modern state post WWI was not Jews decision! They invited and asked for peace and the Arab league got together and said there was absolutely no way they were accepting their dhimmi having rule over "Islamic land" and THEY decided to launch a war to try and kill all the Jews are take over Israel. The fact that they lost this war is the root of their tragic tale!

5. Whilst SOME Arab Muslims were indeed forcibly removed from their homes, historical evidence demonstrates that SOME left of their own accord to avoid the war (fully expecting that they'd be back in two weeks once all the Jews were dead) and SOME were told by the Pan Arab league to leave to make way for war, with a promise they'd be home. Flyers were dropped from the sky telling them this!

The point being, had that war gone the other way, the Arabs would have won the war, killed or expelled all the Jews and Arab Muslims would be living in Jewish houses now. This is the simple way the world works!

Those Arab Muslims who decided NOT to try and overthrow Israel, remained where they were and are now thriving members of the Israeli community - with seats on the knesset, homes, jobs, serving in the IDF and more.

No blame is on modern day Palestinians for the behavior of others during the Ottoman empire, British mandate or even the Arab league war. Likewise no blame is on modern day Israelis. Peace is a two way street and the simple fact is that Arabs did not want Jews to have their own country and NOR did they want to allow them to live in their countries as equal and safe citizens. They wanted them wiped off earth.

The tragedy of the "nakba" is not that it occurred. A larger nakba occurred for Jews, and for many more people. Today alone, FAR more people are displaced and disposed. With a heck of a lot less support!

Modern day Israel is TINY. Large swathes of what was once Israel is now a part of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or Egypt. There are not swathes of Jews or Christians crying decades later over being moved - although they were! Modern day Israel is 115km across. I mean, we are talking about moving from London to Birmingham! It is simply not a big deal and certainly not worth generations of death and bombs.

The simple truth is that Muslims did not want to live in equality with Jews, and both Jews and Muslims have a right to be there. As such, it is right and fair that there are two separate states, and the minute that's accepted and people stop trying to play off Palestinians are unique victims then they can move forward.

My family did it! And I am glad they did! I would HATE the idea that we'd wasted 80 years trying to kill Iraqis! This situation simply has to stop!

@LemonyTicket This is the best post I have read on this thread. People should really read it and understand it - they won’t though.

Of course they bloody won't.

There's a filter in the brain called "blame the Jews for everything" and they're unable to see it

Thanks for this post.

Hmm, ok. So you don't think the way Israel treats them plays into that at all?
Frankly, no. And it took me decades to get to that point, but no. I have devoted my life to the study of this history and this topic and I do not believe anything Israel did or did not do would have ever changed the reality that the Arab Muslims (widely and not just Palestinians) were deeply, deeply aggrieved by the idea of their dhimmi (subordinates) gaining independence and ruling over them in any possible sense.

It wasn't about land or houses. I am a child of the dispossessed. I assure you I give zero though to the home that was taken from my grandma. Nobody does, except in this one set of circumstances because the people involved have been conditioned to believe they have been uniquely mistreated by the foul Jews and must avenge themselves. It doesn't enter their sphere largely that Jews had far more taken and were treated far more foully. It's not about logic, it is a belief hinged on religion.

It was always about dominance of Islam which is ingrained into the psyche and belief system of these people. That is not to say all Muslims - I have two Muslim immediate family members as well as colleagues and friends who are not enraged at the idea of a Jewish state and who just want peace - but sadly they were not elected. the ones who were elected are beset of a deep belief that every inch of this land must be won for Islam, and they are happy to send others to their deaths indefinitely until that is achieved.

Had the lands of Israel been swallowed up into Jordan and Syria, nobody would have batted an eyelid. No one would have given a toss. This is about Jews, having independence, on land that a nationalist Arabs perceive as theirs. And nothing Israel has done or can do will ever stop them. Being nice didn't work, being harsh didn't work, peace negotiations are pointless. There is only one acceptable outcome which is total annihilation of Israel.

Most Palestinians have had relatives killed by Israel, displaced by Israel, maimed by Israel, illegally detained by Israel, humiliated by Israel, forced into poverty by Israel, have their water restricted by Israel and on and on and on it goes.

I think this is all part of the problem. Some of that is true, but if people were able to take a cognitive step back and say "yes, but we took their homeland, made them our subordinates, built our mosque over their temple, destroyed 3/4 of their holiest city, and have been trying to kill them repeatedly for decades" then they'd come to a more reasonable perspective. The problem is they don't get there. It is only the one sided victim mentality which comes from living in a place where you are under a dictatorship, where racism against Jews is taught and actively encouraged and where only 10% of history is taught. That's deliberate. And Palestinians are brainwashed from birth for this. If any of them grow up and start thinking differently, Hamas arrests them and tortures them. They're trapped.

They are also (and seemingly people around the world are also) not capable of apportioning blame to Hamas for things which are their responsibility. It is objective fact that if Israel were not perpetually attacked, it would not detain people for suspected terrorism. It is observable fact that Israel doesn't "restrict water" to Gaza. It provides some water free in accordance with the Oslo accords and the rest is up to Gaza itself. Sadly though, 50% of Gazas water is wasted due to no maintenance and pipes and so on being deliberately destroyed. Valves, for example, are urgently needed to maintain pipes -but each time they are shipped in they are looted and used to make bombs. At what point does Israel stop being solely responsible here?

So many aspects of Palestinian lives are influenced by what Israel allows.
Only because Israel has to defend itself. That is literally the only reason. They tried to help Gaza prosper when they withdrew. They drew up plans for this and sadly Gaza chose instead to have war. I am sorry you do not see this but it is the simple truth. Yes, the current govt of Israel are horrible, but they were not 18 years ago and in return they got rockets fired at them and suicide bombs on their school buses.

How many people like their illegal occupier? I live in Ireland and we still have people that pull a face at the mention of 'the Brits' because of what was done to us by our occupiers.
Ireland was fighting for freedom from those who colonised it and imposed their laws on them. You cannot see it, but it is JEWS who had this done to them. There was no "Jewish" empire which swept the middle east and subjugated Muslims. The Jews and Christians and many other people's were there and it was THEY who were invaded by the Islamic empire which made them all dhimmi and forced them to live by Islamic law as lesser citizens. They were banned from owning land in their own countries. It's a shame you just can't see this.

Israel does not want to colonise Gaza. It was Palestine and numerous other countries which were trying to war against Israel. And each time Israel won, they cried and stamped their feet. Despite all that for decades, Israel VOLUNTARILY gave Gaza it's freedom, it withdrew entirely and gave them infrastructure, hospitals, schools, even agricultural facilities to provide jobs and food. Within weeks Hamas had taken over, fired rockets at Tel Aviv, murdered all their opponents and bombed and looted the infrastructure. And as they kept bombing and killing Jews, a blockade went up to stop them.

You cannot have a viable negotiation with a partner who fails to recognise your right to exist.
No, you can't. And there has never - not since the end of WWI - been any Palestinian movement or political party with any traction that ever accepted Israel's right to exist. In the last election -albeit 18 years ago - the only party suggesting that got around 3% of the vote. Israelis, have never voted in any government with a platform to annihilate or conquer Palestine!

This story is ever so twisted, and when people finally see it then peace can prevail

I have seen you post today showing your excitement at the prospect of the 'reckoning' as you called it in Rafah, I seen you post about how you think illegal settlers who terrorise people in the West Bank are needed to 'keep Hamas out'. I find your views extremely distasteful and I don't wish to engage with you.

You have confused me with someone else. I have not posted anything about reckoning or Rafah, today or any other day!

Ah sorry, your essays are everywhere on this board today. You were just the settler poster.