Eliminate Hamas……At any the cost ?

[Itoosurvive]

Israel’s aim is to eliminate Hamas’ fighters.

So far it has cost 25,000 Palestinian lives.
Approximately 300 members of the IDF have been killed.
According to US intelligence (Rad 4 news 18.00 21-1-2024) between 20% and 30% of Hamas' fighters have been killed.
Approximately 65% of buildings have been destroyed.

So, the IDF is about a quarter of the way through the task they have been set.
The following question is directed at anyone who supports the current campaign to remove Hamas.

When does the loss of life become great enough to call a halt to the operation, or should it carry on until Hamas is eliminated, regardless of the cost?

edit, Title should read "At any cost"

I think any peacekeeping force/authority would be removing power to kill from both sides not just supervising Palestinians. Israel have demonstrated they aren’t capable of behaving reasonably or humanly and there should be consequences for that. In time if there is real intent to live in an equal and safe way perhaps that could be phased out.

What consequences?

Looks like even the US are getting frustrated with the civilian casualties. Although it might be, because they are complicit

reported today on sky
The US has created a channel with Israel to discuss concerns about incidents in Gaza where civilians have been killed or injured, two US officials have said.
US secretary of state Antony Blinken set up the channel with Israel's war cabinet following a meeting earlier this month, the sources told Reuters news agency.
During the meeting, Mr Blinken had expressed concern about "constant" reports of Israeli strikes that either hit humanitarian sites or resulted in large numbers of civilians being killed or injured.
It comes as pressure mounts on the Biden administration over the climbing civilian toll in Gaza during Israel's ground offensive.
The US has recently expressed frustration with Israel's failure to alleviate the plight of the Palestinian population in Gaza.
Through the channel, Washington is reportedly raising "every specific incident of concern" related to Israel's military campaign in Gaza.

I think having a peacekeeping force take over running your country is a fairly obvious consequence of running amok bombing and starving a trapped population. I think there will have to be reparation for the damage done. It would be different if there was any attempt to find a peaceful solution but what we see and hear is a continuation of what has been happening and an expectation that the rest of the world will just sit by.

What on earth are you talking about? Hamas have been universally condemned, most western governments support Israel and there are negotiations ongoing. Of couse Hamas are being asked to cease fire.

Do you really think if Hamas stopped firing rockets Israel would stop bombing Gaza? I don't.....

It is truly unbelievable that the rest of the world has just watched the slaughter. It seems it does not matter how brutal and murderous Israel gets.

I have yet to see a placard at one of the many UK "ceasefire" marches asking Hamas to ceasefire and stop sending rockets.
If Hamas admit defeat, and demilitarise yes this war will be over. Its in their hands as much as it is in Israel's. Hamas are not interested in ceasefire and its time we hold them accountable and march to that.

Perhaps you should check with what Hamas have said then. They have offered up ceasefires with hostage exchanges. Not their fault if Israel is happier to blow up their hostages instead.

Perhaps Bibi could address the very angry relatives of said hostages who are encamped outside government buildings and protesting the IDF going in and shooting or bombing captured Israelis.

Yeah, like has happened to many nations the US has done this to.

I guess?

When we commit war crimes, it's a my bad. When our enemies do it, it's clear hatred of everything we stand for.

I listen to Rishi and Biden talk about the rules based international order and almost choke on the raw hypocrisy.

No, this is not a condoning of what Hamas, the Houthis or anyone else is doing. It is, however, a reality check that the idea support only The Good Guys and those opposed are inherently Evil is a little too primary school level discourse for my liking.

Israel can have a right to exist and also be a shitty genocide loving place too.

Because Hamas are not the ones causing the deaths of thousands of civilians 🙄
Also I really doubt UK marchers placards have any impact whatsoever on Hamas.

The marches are a way to put pressure on our government to put pressure on UK allies (Israel) for a ceasefire. Placards regarding a hamas ceasefire are about as much use as a fart in a windtunnel

do you condemn hamas, though?

Obviously.
I also condemn Israel for killing 25,000 people (at least) and destroying 60% of gaza while not appearing to get even close to eliminating hamas or getting hostages back.
At best it's negligent......

Standing and marching for a ceasefire, without marching for the hostages shows an incredibly obvious bias. At least do it to show solidarity to all human suffering in this war, both Israeli and Palestinian.

How do you work that out?
For me, 100 hostages is awful but 25,000 deaths, hundreds of thousands at risk of starvation and 80% displaced due to military action by a democratic government allied to the UK is something different and somewhere our protests might have leverage.

From CNN (US intelligence verified death toll)
Palestinian civilian death toll is at least: 27,270 (Gaza & West Bank)
Hamas death toll(estimated 25%): 7,500

From IDF war dead live page (in Hebrew):
Israeli civilian death toll: 802 (Oct 7th)
IDF death toll Israel: 337 (Oct 7th)
IDF death toll Gaza: 219

Hamas combatant to civilian ratio: 1 IDF killed for every 1.4 civilians killed
IDF combatant to civilian ratio: 1 Hamas killed for every 3.6 civilians killed

IDF should be able to fight Hamas with much less civilian death, even after accounting for any human shields. There are well documented patterns of

• IDF issuing evacuation orders and then killing civilians while they evacuate or after arrival in the safe zones they told civilians to evacuate to
• IDF directly hitting known shelters like UNWRA schools, places of worship, and hospitals
• IDF shooting and killing unarmed civilians waving white flags- including 3 Israeli hostages who had no Hamas around or near them
• Some part of the civilian death toll is due to IDF restricting humanitarian aid so that an increasing number of deaths are due to famine, waterborne illnesses, lack of medicine, and infection/sepsis.

The fact that terrorists who purposely and maliciously target civilians managed to do 2.5x better than IDF at hitting lawful military targets indicates that IDF are either also targeting civilians, or are grossly negligent.

Either way, I agree with the pp that a UN force should take over and Israel needs to be stood down. Not disarmed or demilitarised, but stood down as they are running amok and cannot be relied on to oversee the security of a post-Hamas Palestinian region.

Israel did not offer a 2 month ceasefire, but a two month humanitarian pause.

Can you explain why Israel has repeatedly refused Hamas offer for a permanent ceasefire, an offer that has become a demand over the past two months?

My feeling is that it's whatever it takes for supporters of the campaign in Gaza. If Israel stops now there are still a lot of angry people in Gaza and the WB and surrounding countries, and they will pose an existential threat. It's hard to know what it will take for Israel to feel safe, but it probably requires utter defeat and subjugation of the Palestinian youth. I am afraid death counts will not hold back the supporters who truly believe this is the only way. But nobody yet has given a figure. Nobody has said 'at 100 000 we must stop this.' Maybe because there really is no upper limit for supporters of the ongoing campaign.

Because Hamas have been offering a permanent ceasefire for months! They are not the ones refusing a ceasefire. It is Nethanyu and his War Cabinet that are refusing with the support of the US.

Unless both sides agree to a ceasefire, the rules of war means you both keep fighting & firing.

Marching for a ceasefire is marching for the hostages.
No ceasefire means more hostages die.
Ceasefire means hostages go home alive.

Hamas have been offering a permanent ceasefire and also broadcasting that they'll be repeating the massacre of October 7th. Israel cannot afford to leave Hamas alone until they are well and truly disarmed.