Eliminate Hamas……At any the cost ?

[Itoosurvive]

Israel’s aim is to eliminate Hamas’ fighters.

So far it has cost 25,000 Palestinian lives.
Approximately 300 members of the IDF have been killed.
According to US intelligence (Rad 4 news 18.00 21-1-2024) between 20% and 30% of Hamas' fighters have been killed.
Approximately 65% of buildings have been destroyed.

So, the IDF is about a quarter of the way through the task they have been set.
The following question is directed at anyone who supports the current campaign to remove Hamas.

When does the loss of life become great enough to call a halt to the operation, or should it carry on until Hamas is eliminated, regardless of the cost?

edit, Title should read "At any cost"

They didn't reject it because it wasn't offered to them in the first place

@ayegazumba this was reported on sky news yesterday

No concrete deal between Israel and Hamas has reached negotiating table - Israeli officialAn Israeli official has denied reports saying an agreement between Israel and Hamas is close.
The anonymous official told CNN there is still a long way to go before a deal is reached.
They also said Hamas had not rejected a proposal to release Israeli hostages in exchange for a pause in fighting, as this was never offered to the militant group.
However they said the talks - carried out via mediators - are continuing.
Reports earlier this week suggested Hamas had rejected a two-month pause in fighting in exchange for the release of Israeli hostages.
Others said various deals had reached advanced stages of negotiation.

A rather blatant attempt to derail the thread and to precipitate another discussion as to whether or not genocide is being committed.

Piers, do you think that Israel should continue, regardless of cost ?

@ayegazumba although I am hoping and praying that a deal is reached soon, for the sake of the hostages and for all those in Gaza. It seems there are alot of talks happening in the background but until something is finally agreed on we probably won't know about it

They absolutely did reject the ceasefire offer. Denying they did so is odd to say the least.

How will Palestinian children feel in the future? Turn the question round. How will Israeli children feel about the country that committed genocidal terrorist attacks on them? Would (general) you be happy if they committed atrocities? No you wouldn't. So don't act as though Palestinian children will have a grievance that justifies them committing further genocidal terrorist attacks and declarations of war on Israel when they are adults.

@Alltheprettyseahorses how is it odd? I initially thought they did too as that was what was widely reported. However yesterday's update on sky news is saying they didn't as Israel did not put forward such a offer. Unless the sky news source is incorrect

Do you see no cause and effect at all? I wonder what you think fed the situation in the first place? I wonder why bombing Palestinians equals stopping Hamas in your mind? How does that work? How will whatever environment that grew Hamas be avoided again? Is the solution really “kill them all”?

perhaps if you want understanding it would be sensible to explain and discuss your thinking.

This doesn't even make sense. Especially as neither Israel's policy nor practice is 'kill all Palestinians' but Hamas/Palestine's explicit policy is to destroy Israel. Why are Palestinian children allowed to experience generational trauma as a result of their parents' warmongering and genocidal terrorist attacks on another country while the children of victims of those genocidal terrorist attacks are blamed for feeding the situation (how I have no idea, maybe by being related to women who want to dance)?

@Alltheprettyseahorses I don’t think anyone “allows” or “disallows” trauma. Perhaps an idea of why you think (if you do) bombing the Palestinians is a good idea and how you think it will solve anything, would help. What do you think caused the original attacks and how would you avoid a repeat in future generations?

@Alltheprettyseahorses "The strikes are aimed at specific targets in areas where the population has been warned and asked to leave, are they not? 20k missiles doesn't mean 20k different targets as each target will have numerous missiles directed at it."

Have you seen the aerial footage of Gaza? The place is absolutely decimated. The strikes aren't targeted at all.

@Itoosurvive

Itoo, can you explain why there are tens of thousands of terrorists in Gaza?

Can you explain why Israel is an apartheid state ?

@Desertrose2023

Evidence, please.

Happy reading.

https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

That's a very good question, start up another thread and it can be discussed there. I'll do my best to contribute.

the answer to the original question is when Hamas surrender and/or have been eliminated. That's it. That will be when it ends. When has a war ever ended cos there have been "enough civilian causalities". That's not really how war works. it ends when one side is destroyed or surrenders.

As far as Israel are concerned if they stop then Hamas will have time to regroup, rearm and import more items to destroy Israel and in a few months there will be ANOTHER attack on Israelis (Hamas have stated that they intend to commit 7/10 over again given half a chance) and this will start all over again.

How can you discus removing something if you don’t discus what creating it?

You will find that many Holocaust survivors categorise what the Israeli government is doing as "genocide". Are they wrong? Are they wicked in the extreme? Do not confuse the Israeli government and the Israeli people. They are not the same.; the same way Hamas and the Palestinian people are not the same.

BBC News - Holocaust families criticise Israel over Gaza
“Stop This Madness”: Holocaust Survivor Marione Ingram, 87, Condemns Israeli Assault & Calls for Peace | Democracy Now!
Holocaust survivor: Why I support Palestinian rights - rabble.ca

JustMaggie · Today 09:27
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Hamas is an IDEA. In 5-10 years from now we'll be seeing this very same old song and dance. Nothing has changed, and nothing will change until the two sides grow up and learn to share”

This. Very simplistic but I said to someone out of frustration the other day that the leaders on both sides need their bloody heads knocking together.
This will have to end in a settlement eventually, every conflict does and the leaders on both sides know this. But in the meantime their posturing will cost tens of thousands more innocent lives.

They seem to have learned nothing from history.

So the war will last forever. That’s Netanyahu’s strategy isn’t it?

Hamas will never be eradicated so long as the Palestinian people continue to be denied the right to self determination, freedom and basic human rights and dignity. None of that serves Israel’s purpose though does it?

@Desertrose2023
None of those sources are remotely impartial.

The first links to an organisation founded by an Israeli communist; the second, TLDR but the website links indicate an activist organization, and as for A.I., the obvious and crass appeal to emotion betrays itself as a piece of agitprop.

I see you have failed to notice the irony of an "apartheid state" being pursued through the courts by an ACTUAL, albeit historic, apartheid state (SA).

Lol, if that’s your thinking I don’t believe any organization on earth that criticized Israel would be considered impartial in your eyes. Why bother asking for evidence? You are so wedded to the dogma of Israel’s victimhood that you refuse to see the truth that is there in black and white, even when it’s coming from within Israel itself.

Good for South Africa, a country that overcame an unjust system rising to the defense of a people oppressed by the same injustices. What a shame the Germans haven’t learnt from their mistakes like the South Africans have.

@Desertrose2023

Wow, Desert, those lessons in rhetoric have been really paying out for you. Do you have any books out on perpetual victimhood and oppression, because you really should!