Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

Eliminate Hamas……At any the cost ?

498 replies

Itoosurvive · 24/01/2024 20:55

Israel’s aim is to eliminate Hamas’ fighters.

So far it has cost 25,000 Palestinian lives.
Approximately 300 members of the IDF have been killed.
According to US intelligence (Rad 4 news 18.00 21-1-2024) between 20% and 30% of Hamas' fighters have been killed.
Approximately 65% of buildings have been destroyed.

So, the IDF is about a quarter of the way through the task they have been set.
The following question is directed at anyone who supports the current campaign to remove Hamas.

When does the loss of life become great enough to call a halt to the operation, or should it carry on until Hamas is eliminated, regardless of the cost?

edit, Title should read "At any cost"

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
untitledmum · 25/01/2024 23:23

MercanDede · 25/01/2024 23:06

Marching for a ceasefire is marching for the hostages.
No ceasefire means more hostages die.
Ceasefire means hostages go home alive.

With that logic. Hamas are the ones causing Palestinians to die.

You're saying that Israel are the cause of the hostages not yet being released, well then Hamas are the cause of the Gazan civilians suffering.

I'll say it once again, demand a ceasefire from Hamas as much as you're demanding it from Israel. Do it just to show solidarity to the innocent Israeli civilians.

Elichmoon · 25/01/2024 23:23

MercanDede · 25/01/2024 22:56

From CNN (US intelligence verified death toll)
Palestinian civilian death toll is at least: 27,270 (Gaza & West Bank)
Hamas death toll(estimated 25%): 7,500

From IDF war dead live page (in Hebrew):
Israeli civilian death toll: 802 (Oct 7th)
IDF death toll Israel: 337 (Oct 7th)
IDF death toll Gaza: 219

Hamas combatant to civilian ratio: 1 IDF killed for every 1.4 civilians killed
IDF combatant to civilian ratio: 1 Hamas killed for every 3.6 civilians killed

IDF should be able to fight Hamas with much less civilian death, even after accounting for any human shields. There are well documented patterns of

  • IDF issuing evacuation orders and then killing civilians while they evacuate or after arrival in the safe zones they told civilians to evacuate to
  • IDF directly hitting known shelters like UNWRA schools, places of worship, and hospitals
  • IDF shooting and killing unarmed civilians waving white flags- including 3 Israeli hostages who had no Hamas around or near them
  • Some part of the civilian death toll is due to IDF restricting humanitarian aid so that an increasing number of deaths are due to famine, waterborne illnesses, lack of medicine, and infection/sepsis.

The fact that terrorists who purposely and maliciously target civilians managed to do 2.5x better than IDF at hitting lawful military targets indicates that IDF are either also targeting civilians, or are grossly negligent.

Either way, I agree with the pp that a UN force should take over and Israel needs to be stood down. Not disarmed or demilitarised, but stood down as they are running amok and cannot be relied on to oversee the security of a post-Hamas Palestinian region.

This is just blatantly untrue. The IDF do whatever they can to minimise civilian casualties, at the expense of 21 of their soldiers the other day. Yes, they hit mosques, schools and hospitals AFTER issuing evacuation notices BECAUSE the ( elected?) Terrorist government of Gaza have deliberately placed their weapons in places of civilian population. Hamas want civilian deaths to happen in as great numbers as they can....it supports their image in the western media who love the underdog and and are right now gaining support from people who actually have no idea about the middle east at all. There were demonstrations in Gaza yesterday against Hamas, asking them to release the hostages, so there are people in Gaza in support of the IDF too. Hamas is as not good for good Palestinians as it is for Israel.

MercanDede · 25/01/2024 23:26

untitledmum · 25/01/2024 23:19

Hamas have been offering a permanent ceasefire and also broadcasting that they'll be repeating the massacre of October 7th. Israel cannot afford to leave Hamas alone until they are well and truly disarmed.

Hamas has said they would do Oct 7th again for as long as the occupation continues. Israel could, you know, stop illegally occupying Palestinian lands.

Hamas has even compromised, they aren’t even demanding the Palestinian lands the UN gave them, they will settle for the 1967 borders which gives Israel a bigger slice of the pie.

Israel can afford to do a ceasefire, because the alternative will be worse for Israel. A ceasefire is only bad for Nethanyu because he wouldn’t be able to delay the criminal trial against him for corruption and he would be ousted and replaced with an Israeli PM of a more reasonable, peace making view.

Hamas would also be replaced, US and Qatar and everyone has made it clear that Hamas will not be in charge after a ceasefire. And with no occupation, their very reason for existence will evaporate.

MercanDede · 25/01/2024 23:28

untitledmum · 25/01/2024 23:23

With that logic. Hamas are the ones causing Palestinians to die.

You're saying that Israel are the cause of the hostages not yet being released, well then Hamas are the cause of the Gazan civilians suffering.

I'll say it once again, demand a ceasefire from Hamas as much as you're demanding it from Israel. Do it just to show solidarity to the innocent Israeli civilians.

There is no point demanding a ceasefire from Hamas because they have already agreed to one and repeatedly restated that they agree.

A ceasefire has to be agreed on by both sides to happen. Israel is the side rejecting the ceasefire.

So yes, all death due to rejecting a ceasefire falls to Israel.

untitledmum · 25/01/2024 23:30

MercanDede · 25/01/2024 23:26

Hamas has said they would do Oct 7th again for as long as the occupation continues. Israel could, you know, stop illegally occupying Palestinian lands.

Hamas has even compromised, they aren’t even demanding the Palestinian lands the UN gave them, they will settle for the 1967 borders which gives Israel a bigger slice of the pie.

Israel can afford to do a ceasefire, because the alternative will be worse for Israel. A ceasefire is only bad for Nethanyu because he wouldn’t be able to delay the criminal trial against him for corruption and he would be ousted and replaced with an Israeli PM of a more reasonable, peace making view.

Hamas would also be replaced, US and Qatar and everyone has made it clear that Hamas will not be in charge after a ceasefire. And with no occupation, their very reason for existence will evaporate.

Can you send me a link to the source showing that Hamas will settle for the 1967 borders, and recognise the state of Israel please?

(I am very informed on the current conflict and am yet to hear of anything even remotely close to Hamas conceding to recognising that Israel is not going anywhere. Please do forward me this source)

Efacsen · 25/01/2024 23:33

@Elichmoon do tell me how 'evacuating' a hospital works?

MercanDede · 25/01/2024 23:35

Elichmoon · 25/01/2024 23:23

This is just blatantly untrue. The IDF do whatever they can to minimise civilian casualties, at the expense of 21 of their soldiers the other day. Yes, they hit mosques, schools and hospitals AFTER issuing evacuation notices BECAUSE the ( elected?) Terrorist government of Gaza have deliberately placed their weapons in places of civilian population. Hamas want civilian deaths to happen in as great numbers as they can....it supports their image in the western media who love the underdog and and are right now gaining support from people who actually have no idea about the middle east at all. There were demonstrations in Gaza yesterday against Hamas, asking them to release the hostages, so there are people in Gaza in support of the IDF too. Hamas is as not good for good Palestinians as it is for Israel.

Numbers do not lie.
Every fact I listed was from the evidence presented to the ICJ, so those are also true.

There is no evidence Hamas wants all these Palestinians to killed. And even if they did, why would IDF do them that favour when they are enemies?

Parkingt111 · 25/01/2024 23:36

@Elichmoon Gazans not supporting Hamas does not mean they support the IDF. The same IDF who have currently killed thousands of their children and bombed their homes.

MercanDede · 25/01/2024 23:42

untitledmum · 25/01/2024 23:30

Can you send me a link to the source showing that Hamas will settle for the 1967 borders, and recognise the state of Israel please?

(I am very informed on the current conflict and am yet to hear of anything even remotely close to Hamas conceding to recognising that Israel is not going anywhere. Please do forward me this source)

“Since October 7, Israel has described Hamas as an existential threat. It has argued that it needs to destroy the group.

Yet, in 2017, Hamas revised its original 1988 charter to recognise, in effect, a two-state solution — and therefore the existence of Israel as a legitimate entity. This, even as Israel insists it can no longer allow Hamas to exist, and as Israeli politicians, led by Netanyahu, have ruled out a two-state solution.

On Sunday, Netanyahu rejected a Hamas proposal to end the war and release more than 100 captives held by the group, in exchange for a withdrawal of Israeli forces, the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails and recognition of Hamas governance over Gaza.

A look into the history of Hamas — among Palestine’s most popular resistance fronts — suggests that its political leadership has, over the years, proposed numerous long-term truces or ceasefires to Israel in exchange for the realisation of a sovereign independent Palestinian state.
Israel has rejected those offers, arguing that Hamas could not be trusted to adhere to any long-term ceasefire, and insisting that the proposals for short-term pauses in fighting were insincere and strategically aimed only at helping the armed movement regroup from losses.
Sunday was only the latest instance of Israel rebuffing those offers.”

A timeline of Hamas truce proposals:

  • 1988: Just one year after the group was founded, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar met the late top Israeli officials Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres, and proposed that Israel withdraw from the 1967-occupied territories in exchange for a truce. This was before Hamas had built its armed wing, the Qassam Brigades. Also, in 1988, Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmad Yasin himself indicated a willingness to negotiate with Israel under the condition that it “first acknowledge the Palestinian people’s right to self-determination and right of return to their land”.
  • 1994: Hamas offered a truce to Israel after the abduction and killing of Israeli soldier Nachshon Wachsman. A year earlier, the Palestinian Authority (PA) had accepted the proposal of a Palestinian state comprised of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. Hamas agreed to that proposal.
  • 1995: Hamas again proposed a 10-year truce based on the same condition of Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories.
  • 1996: In March, after Israel assassinated Hamas military leader Yahya Ayyash in January, the movement offered a ceasefire.
  • 1997: September: Days before Israel attempted to assassinate Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal in the Jordanian capital, Amman, the movement offered Israel a 10-year truce. October:After his release from Israeli prison, Hamas founder Yasin renewed the call for a ceasefire. November: Hamas again proposed a truce. The Qassam Brigades said attacks against Israeli civilians would stop if Israel stopped targeting Palestinian civilians.
  • 1999: Yasin made another ceasefire offer provided Israel withdrew from the 1967 territories. In a letter to European diplomats, Hamas offered to cease all hostilities in exchange for Israeli withdrawal, evacuation of settlements, and release of Palestinian prisoners.
  • 2003: In December, Yasin offered a ceasefire on the condition that Israel withdraw from the Palestinian territories. He was killed four months later in an Israeli attack.
  • 2004: Yasin’s successor and Hamas co-founder Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi again proposed a 10-year truce. Israel killed him one month after Yasin.
  • 2006: Hamas again offered a 10-year truce that would be “automatically renewed if [Israel] commits to restoring the full and legitimate rights of the Palestinian people to them within a final solution that matches what is accepted by the PLO”.
  • 2007: Senior Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh repeated the group’s call for a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.
  • 2008: Hamas leader Meshaal again offered a 10-year truce, which he repeated a year later.
  • 2014: Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad offered a 10-year truce in exchange for the lifting of the Israeli blockade and release of Palestinian prisoners.
  • 2015: Hamas proposed a long-term ceasefire in exchange for the lifting of the blockade.
  • 2017: Hamas presented its revised charter announcing that it accepted a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders.
Hamas revises its 1988 charterThe Hamas movement was founded in 1987, two decades after Israel’s 1967 military occupation of the remaining Palestinian territories it failed to capture in 1948. Its leaders were shaped by the hard realities of occupation, which was marked by mass arrests of Palestinians, expropriation of Palestinian lands and control of resources. More than half a million Palestinians were arrested and tried in Israel’s military-run courts between 1967 and 1987, some 1,500 Palestinian homes were demolished, and thousands of other people were forcibly deported. After Hamas won the 2006 elections in Gaza, its leader Haniyeh said the group accepted a state on the 1967 borders and all the decisions taken by the PA and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), but there were no takers. Hamas leaders have also backed the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative that called for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from territories occupied in 1967, the right of Palestinian refugees to return to the homes they have been displaced from since 1948, and the formation of a sovereign independent Palestinian state in return for Arab recognition of Israel. But Hamas’s offers were repeatedly dismissed by Israel and ignored by its Western allies, including the United States, despite Washington’s claims of playing the role of an “honest broker” in the conflict. “Hamas has always said that they are ready to offer a truce and to stop targeting civilians if the [Israeli] occupation removes its settlers,” Tareq Baconi, author of Hamas Contained: The Rise and Pacification of Palestinian Resistance, told Al Jazeera. At least 750,000 Israelis live in hundreds of fortified illegal settlements and outposts across the occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the vast majority of which have been built either entirely or partially on private Palestinian land. In 2017, Hamas formally amended its 1988 charter, announcing once again that it would accept a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders. “The Hamas thinking from the very start was clear: ‘We are not facing a religious war’,” Meshaal told Al Jazeera at the time. “Hamas, ever since its inception, realises the nature of the struggle against the Israeli occupier, that it is not a struggle because they are Jews, but because they are occupiers.” Israeli officials dismissed the new policy paper as “lies”. In a video, Netanyahu symbolically threw the document into a bin, saying it was an attempt to deceive the world. ‘Not about Gaza’However, some analysts say that Israel has not shown interest in a political settlement, whether with Hamas or other Palestinian political parties such as Fatah, which governs the occupied West Bank. “The issue is not about Gaza,” Sari Orabi, a Ramallah-based analyst, told Al Jazeera. “It’s also not about whether Israel or Hamas started the war. There are daily killings and assaults in the occupied West Bank, there are attacks on Al-Aqsa Mosque, there are prisoners and checkpoints.” “The people in Gaza are refugees. They were isolated and separated from the rest of the Palestinian people,” he said. The vast majority of Gaza’s population are refugees, expelled from their cities and villages in what is now the state of Israel by Zionist militias in 1948. Analysts also blame Israel for the failure of the Oslo Accords, signed in 1993 and 1995, between Israel and the PLO – which was representative of the Palestinian people at the time. The agreements led to the formation of the PA, an interim, five-year governing body meant to lead to an independent Palestinian state comprising the occupied territory of East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. However, 30 years into its existence, the PA has failed to create a state in the face of Israeli occupation, illegal land grabs and settlements. Hamas took control of Gaza from the PA in 2007. While there was initial support for the Oslo Accords among Palestinians, the failure to reach a final peace agreement by 1999 and the growing settlement projects particularly under Netanyahu, left many disappointed. In a leaked video in 2010, Netanyahu boasted how he made sure the Oslo Accords did not succeed. The hopes of the Oslo Accords have turned into despair as Israeli policies under successive governments continued to undermine the PA and its aspirations. Today, the PA has limited administrative rule over pockets of the occupied West Bank, while Israeli settlements, which are considered illegal under international law, have grown rapidly. The settler population in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem has grown from 250,000 Israelis in 1993 to more than 700,000 this year. “The Israelis wanted Oslo [Accords] because that’s how they maintain their colonisation; by maintaining the facade of a peace process,” said Baconi. “Hamas was showing a mirror to the Israelis to say: If you’re actually talking about the possibility of ending the occupation, then end it,” he told Al Jazeera. “That was their offer instead of the [1993] Oslo agreements – that they would stop armed resistance if Israel left Palestinians be in the eastern side of Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza.”

Netanyahu rejects Hamas deal to end war, release captives

Israeli leader says soldiers will have ‘fallen in vain’ if he accepts Palestinian group’s terms to end the war.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/22/netanyahu-rejects-hamas-deal-to-end-war-release-captives#:~:text=Israel's%20Prime%20Minister%20Benjamin%20Netanyahu,armed%20group's%20governance%20of%20Gaza.

EasterIssland · 25/01/2024 23:44

ProperRightun · 25/01/2024 22:32

do you condemn hamas, though?

110 days and 75 years after of this war … people still have to answer to this question

strange first comment from you. Welcome onboard to mumsnet @ProperRightun make sure you read the thousands of comments (tho probably you have already read them) that are in this board so you know who condemns Hamas and who is a support terrorist … it’ll save those of us that are here asking for a ceasefire answering to the stupid question you’ve done.

untitledmum · 25/01/2024 23:47

@MercanDede The very first link that you sent me and I clicked on is titled "Khaled Meshaal presents a new document in which Hamas accepts 1967 borders without recognising state of Israel."

I'll repeat, without recognising a state of Israel. That's not a legitimate agreement!

EasterIssland · 25/01/2024 23:48

Elichmoon · 25/01/2024 23:23

This is just blatantly untrue. The IDF do whatever they can to minimise civilian casualties, at the expense of 21 of their soldiers the other day. Yes, they hit mosques, schools and hospitals AFTER issuing evacuation notices BECAUSE the ( elected?) Terrorist government of Gaza have deliberately placed their weapons in places of civilian population. Hamas want civilian deaths to happen in as great numbers as they can....it supports their image in the western media who love the underdog and and are right now gaining support from people who actually have no idea about the middle east at all. There were demonstrations in Gaza yesterday against Hamas, asking them to release the hostages, so there are people in Gaza in support of the IDF too. Hamas is as not good for good Palestinians as it is for Israel.

This is just blatantly untrue.

if idf was doing their best to minimise civilians deaths even Biden wouldn’t be worried but currently he’s critising them for not doing even more to protect civil life’s.

ps. Are you telling me that idf informed every person that has died since 7-10 , around 25-30k people ? Even those killed by snippets ? Do you have proof of this ?

MercanDede · 25/01/2024 23:49

untitledmum · 25/01/2024 23:47

@MercanDede The very first link that you sent me and I clicked on is titled "Khaled Meshaal presents a new document in which Hamas accepts 1967 borders without recognising state of Israel."

I'll repeat, without recognising a state of Israel. That's not a legitimate agreement!

If you read further, that is reference to them not recognising the legality of the State of Israel’s rule over them as an occupying force. The very fact you accept 1967 borders between a Palestine and Israel means Israel is being recognised as a state.

MercanDede · 25/01/2024 23:52

untitledmum · 25/01/2024 23:47

@MercanDede The very first link that you sent me and I clicked on is titled "Khaled Meshaal presents a new document in which Hamas accepts 1967 borders without recognising state of Israel."

I'll repeat, without recognising a state of Israel. That's not a legitimate agreement!

I can link to historic reports as well
2012- https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-hamas-wants-palestinian-state-with-67-borders/

and 2013 Israel rejects peace and 1967 borders
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-reportedly-rejects-1967-borders-precondition/

MercanDede · 26/01/2024 00:00

2017
It’s official: The Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) announced on May 1 that it recognizes Israel's 1967 borders. This is no trivial matter.

And Nethanyu rejects it, shocking President Obama
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XlVPV560RZU

Kindatired · 26/01/2024 00:04

VisitationRights · 25/01/2024 08:40

What’s the alternative? What would you have Israel do? They are at war with terrorists who don’t want peace.

Ah yes, here we go again. This why the Israeli government propaganda machine went into overdrive trying to discredit the Irish government when they called for a humanitarian ceasefire early in the conflict. Because there is an alternative even if it’s painful and doesn’t quench the bloodlust.
In response to 7/10 they should have remained calm and thought about a strategy that didn’t involve mass killling of civilians with unguided dumb missiles.
To undermine Hamas, they need to do a deal that provides Palestinians with a viable alternative. An administration that delivers for Palestinians without having to use bribes to stay in power. A division of land that is closer to the original maps and links the Territories. The implementation of the right to return . An end to illegal settlements.
They need the rule of law to prevail in all the Palestinian Territories, self determination in all the Palestinian Territories, an end to shoot to kill , an end to internment, an end to mass detention of underage children, equality of opportunity and parity of esteem.
Without doing this it is Israel that will be in a prison of their own making, their economy destroyed, morally bankrupt and abandoned by their erstwhile best friend, the US.
No one likes to deals with their enemies or make painful concessions but that’s how peace is made and it takes years. Even the combined British and Irish defence forces failed to eliminate the IRA who were probably only in their hundreds and were surrounded by water with no tunnels, until the ecosystem was changed.
So yes , there was an alternative to this immoral bloodthirsty bombardment and besiegement that amounts to a series of war crimes. The current approach will never rid Israel of its terrorist problem. It will just deliver misery ,ruination and years of low level warfare, probably on multiple fronts.

MercanDede · 26/01/2024 00:15

2018
There was “no justification” for Israeli forces to use live rounds, according to a press releaseissued by the UN Commission of Inquiry into the 2018 Gaza protests. Israeli snipers deployed near the separation fence to police the protests referred to as “the Great March of Return”, shot over 6106 demonstrators, killing 183, between 30 March 2018 and 31 December 2018. 945 were children, of which 35 died
https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/co-iopt/report2018-opt

“42 knees in one day…”
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/42-knees-in-one-day-israeli-snipers-open-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters/0000017f-f2da-d497-a1ff-f2dab2520000

'42 knees in one day': Israeli snipers open up about shooting Gaza protesters

***

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/42-knees-in-one-day-israeli-snipers-open-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters/0000017f-f2da-d497-a1ff-f2dab2520000

MercanDede · 26/01/2024 00:21

2008
”The leader of Hamas said Monday that his Palestinian militant group would offer Israel a 10-year "hudna," or truce, as implicit proof of recognition of Israel if it withdrew from all lands it seized in the 1967 Middle East War.
Khaled Mashaal told The Associated Press that he made the offer to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter in talks on Saturday. "We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition," Mashaal said.
In his comments Monday, Mashaal used the Arabic word "hudna," meaning truce, which is more concrete than "tahdiya" — a period of calm — which Hamas often uses to describe a simple cease-fire.
"Hudna" implies a recognition of the other party's existence.”

”Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he decided not to meet with Carter in Israel because he does not wish to be seen as participating in any negotiations with Hamas.
Carter also urged Israel to engage in direct negotiations with the Islamic militant group, saying it was a “problem” that Israel and the United States refuse to meet with Hamas. Both governments consider it a terrorist organization.

'Problem' with Israel, U.S., Carter says
“The problem is not that I met with Hamas in Syria,” he said. “The problem is that Israel and the United States refuse to meet with someone who must be involved.”
“There’s no doubt that both the Arab world and Hamas will accept Israel’s right to exist in peace within 1967 borders,” he said.
In his comments Monday, Carter said Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking has “regressed” since a U.S.-hosted Mideast conference in Annapolis, Md., in November.
Israel has been negotiating directly with Abbas, who heads a moderate government based in the West Bank. Abbas lost control of the Gaza Strip last June, when Hamas violently seized control of that territory.

April 21, 2008, 11:11 AM BST / Source: The Associated Press

MercanDede · 26/01/2024 00:30

MAY 17, 2011, 6:27PM ET, NPR All Things Considered:
<iframe src="https://www.npr.org/player/embed/136403918/136406819" width="100%" height="290" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" title="NPR embedded audio player">

”Hamas' Deputy Foreign Minister Ghazi Hamad told NPR's Robert Siegel that the Islamic political party has accepted a two-state solution that respects the 1967 borders. Robert asked Hamad in a very straight forward way:
"If Israel were to accept a two-state solution in which Palestine would be in Gaza and the West Bank and have its capital in Jerusalem, is that an acceptable aim that Hamas is striving for or is that in and of itself insufficient because there would still be a state of Israel?"
"Look, we said, frankly, we accept the state and '67 borders. This was mentioned many times and we repeated many times," said Hamad.”

Nethanyu’s response to this:
"A leopard has sunk its teeth in our flesh, in the flesh of our children, wives, our elderly, and we will not be tempted to believe that this leopard has now changed its spots," Netanyahu told the AP. "We will not ignore its voracious growls. We will strike it down."

TomeTome · 26/01/2024 01:33

I think Hamas and Israel have both shown who they are and now it is up to the world to do something about it.

MercanDede · 26/01/2024 01:46

TomeTome · 26/01/2024 01:33

I think Hamas and Israel have both shown who they are and now it is up to the world to do something about it.

Yes. They’ve had 30+ years to sort out peace and two states and they’ve failed miserably. Out with the old, in with the new hopefully moderate pacifists.

Lanabigbanana · 26/01/2024 07:03

Itoosurvive · 25/01/2024 17:45

The alternative is to stop the campaign now, thus saving lives.

Surely it's not beyond the wit of the UN or some other body go into Gaza to ensure that Hamas don't rearm. Meanwhile, negotiate. And before you say "Hamas won't negotiate", you don't know that, do you?

The alternative is to stop the campaign now, thus saving lives.

Yes that would save lives in the short term but wold give Hamas time to regroup and re-arm. Then it all starts again.

Surely it's not beyond the wit of the UN or some other body go into Gaza to ensure that Hamas don't rearm.

How would that be achieved? Don't forget Hamas are bunkered-up under Gaza in tunnels, some 70 feet deep that they've been building for years (using supplies meant for housebuilding for the population).
Do you think they are going to come out and talk to anyone?

The main organisers are elsewhere.

EasterIssland · 26/01/2024 07:10

Lanabigbanana · 26/01/2024 07:03

The alternative is to stop the campaign now, thus saving lives.

Yes that would save lives in the short term but wold give Hamas time to regroup and re-arm. Then it all starts again.

Surely it's not beyond the wit of the UN or some other body go into Gaza to ensure that Hamas don't rearm.

How would that be achieved? Don't forget Hamas are bunkered-up under Gaza in tunnels, some 70 feet deep that they've been building for years (using supplies meant for housebuilding for the population).
Do you think they are going to come out and talk to anyone?

The main organisers are elsewhere.

so if Hamas members are bunkered up and the main ones are abroad how is the current tactic going to end with Hamas ? The current one will end with civilians not with Hamas. And I don’t think the current situation is quite ideal for the Israeli citizens neither. And I believe the longer this last the least secure Israeli citizens will ever be. So, how is the current Israeli tactic benefiting anyone ? How do you end with an idiology?

Lanabigbanana · 26/01/2024 07:28

@EasterIssland so if Hamas members are bunkered up and the main ones are abroad how is the current tactic going to end with Hamas

There are still Hamas fighters (and some 'low-level' commanders) in the tunnels living in what could be described as an "underground city". The tunnels are also Hamas’s outposts, acting as storage and outposts for the armed terrorist group.

Israel is destroying the tunnels using specialist bombs known as 'bunker busters' that can penetrate up to 100 feet. These bombs obliterate anything nearby and causing a shockwave that is likely to trigger cave-ins of subterranean structures farther away than the intended target.

This is why Gaza is such as mess because they can create craters 30 feet deep. Unfortunately Hamas has inserted itself under schools, hospitals, churches and other civilian buildings. This is why the IDF asked civilians to evacuate.

This is why the IDF started in North Gaza and systematically pushed Hamas further south. Now the North of Gaza has been cleared they are moving on to the South of Gaza

Hamas is one of the terrorist arms of Iran who supplies them with munitions. So what Israel is doing is fighting a proxy war with Iran.

Iran is the problem here, and it's important to see the bigger picture.

Fussandmisery · 26/01/2024 07:46

I'll repeat, without recognising a state of Israel. That's not a legitimate agreement
Does Israel recognise the state of Palestine?