Eliminate Hamas……At any the cost ?

[Itoosurvive]

Israel’s aim is to eliminate Hamas’ fighters.

So far it has cost 25,000 Palestinian lives.
Approximately 300 members of the IDF have been killed.
According to US intelligence (Rad 4 news 18.00 21-1-2024) between 20% and 30% of Hamas' fighters have been killed.
Approximately 65% of buildings have been destroyed.

So, the IDF is about a quarter of the way through the task they have been set.
The following question is directed at anyone who supports the current campaign to remove Hamas.

When does the loss of life become great enough to call a halt to the operation, or should it carry on until Hamas is eliminated, regardless of the cost?

edit, Title should read "At any cost"

If the surface is bombed and the tunnels flooded with salt water, how is it ever going to be habitable?

@TomeTome there's a real risk it won't be
Flooding Hamas tunnels with seawater risks ‘ruining basic life in Gaza’, says expert | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

That's terrifying

I think you’ll find many are quite happy to call it a slaughter, ie indiscriminate killing of unarmed civilians
Because
That’s what it is

While I cannot quite put my finger on exactly why quite yet, I find that there is something particularly galling about this "it is tragic" line by Israel and its supporters.

Possibly it is the combination of a) acknowledging the insane level of carnage, b) rejecting any and all responsibility for it, and c) in at least some cases, either openly so or implied, some sort of a demand to be viewed as a victim not despite but because of Israeli violence. Classical abuser "woe me, look at what you made me do!" behaviour!

And, yes! I, for one, am more than happy to call it "slaughter". Or worse!

Classical abuser "woe me, look at what you made me do!" behaviour!
Exactly!!

I think the Israeli strategy is not so much to "eliminate Hamas" because I'm sure they know that's impossible. They will ensure that the Palestinians never dare to rise up again by sheer terror and unhinged violence, like they did in Lebanon in 2006. They want to teach the Palestinians a lesson they'll never forget.

This is true.
And Israel are also aiming to demilitarise Hamas practically by ensuring that they don't have the power to cause carnage again. So they're ruining their tunnels, rocket launchers, terror infrastructure etc.

... all of which would be a lot more credible if it were not for the fact that Israel also kills Palestinians for any non-violent form of resistance!

Points in case:

• The 1st Intifada: for the initial 18 months or so, not a single Israeli was killed. But ~200 Palestinians were (and: many thousands more injured! A personal friend of mine still has the scar from being shot throgh the shoulder)!
• The Great March of Return - again, not a single Israeli was even killed (a total of five were injured; some from friendly fire/shrapnel). Some ~200 Palestinians were, though, and thousands more were injured!
• ... and more ... I am not about to type out an "anthology of Palestinian non-violent resistance" here. If I do write that, you please pay for the book!

Israel demands "total subjugation", nothing less!

Israel demands the right to kill and maim Palestinians for rising up against their oppression even when they are not even killing Israelis.

And "total subjugation" they will never get! Not from Palestinians, not from anywhere else!

The 1st intafada began when an Israeli man was stabbed to death in Gaza... Then an accidental car accident was falsely rumoured to be deliberate causing riots and violence by the Palestinians.
In total 1.4k Israeli civilians were killed. So peaceful intifadas is delusional.

Israel does demand for a "total subjugation" of terrorists because that is what all civilised countries do. All Israel would like is a country that is safe for its citizens without the threat of rockets, stabbings, suicide bombings and festival massacres.

Where on earth are you taking that figure of 1.4k dead Israelis from, pray do tell? EDIT: specifically "civilians" ... I was referring to "total numbers".

Sources please!

No, "I'm just making shit up at this point" does not count!

Even the most generous estimates are below 400 - and, again, I was specifically referring to the first few months!

Not even official Israel claims that - and it's not as though lying at any given opportunity were not sort of "basically official policy" ...

Israel does demand for a "total subjugation" of terrorists because that is what all civilised countries do. All Israel would like is a country that is safe for its citizens without the threat of rockets, stabbings, suicide bombings and festival massacres.

I think that will be difficult to achieve now. Years of land grabs, violent settlers (in the West Bank) and general mistreatment (I’m thinking of stuff like administrative detention here) plus a right wing government in Israel that condones such behaviour, have created a great deal of instability and resentment. The perfect breeding ground for radicalisation.

Also bear in mind Hamas do not exist is isolation and their leaders are not even in Gaza. I’m sorry but I don’t see what bombing the hell out of Gaza will achieve. Sure it may destroy infrastructure and make Gaza unusable as a base but Hamas will probably continue in one form or another.

@HeidiInTheBigCity Source? These figures I got from Britannica. (Honestly, I don't know how reliable that is.)

You made a point about the March of no return. I'm currently trying to research it. My understanding is that after Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 there was 100m enforced buffer "no-go-zone" along the border. These riots at the border encroached on this military zone. Its reasonable to say that regardless whether these marches were peaceful or not there are consequences to entering a military zone.

Lastly, frankly I find the term "Palestinian non-violent resistance" very triggering. Every suicide bomber and terror attack In Israel that I've heard about over the years have all been carried out in the name of Palestinian resistance, including the latest one on 7/10, so you'd be hard up selling a book with that title to me.

I think it’s less a demand for “total subjugation” and more following the ideas behind Krav Maga. This form of martial art is quite central in IDF thinking/training I think?

Yes, I get that you want them to please just "go, lie down and STFU or flee quietly"

This is the thing - Israel does expect the Palestinians to just pack their bags and quietly trot off to some other “Arab country” and leave then to all the land to which they feel entitled.

Pro Israelis will also happily tell you that they are aware that Israel's prime minister is not a good person and, of course, they don’t approve of settler violence but they scream blue murder if you suggest Israel’s actions might be part of the problem.

@HeidiInTheBigCity I did not say that my feelings are more important then theirs at all. I said that I would not buy a book with that title for personal trauma reasons.
I do find the term Palestinian resistance triggering. I've had friends and family killed in "Palestinian resistance" so for me rioting Palestinians brings up a lot of fear.

And to argue with you again, if you enter a military zone throughout the world, it states very clearly that you are at risk of getting shot.

It’s quite revealing that the Israeli ministers calling for “voluntary humanitarian migration of Palestinians from Gaza” are not saying they can come into Israel, return to their homes there or settle peacefully within Israel. Israel is 1) a wealthy nation right next door who caused the current humanitarian crisis and 2) the occupying nation, which is the one and only country currently legally responsible for the welfare of Palestinians.

If their objective were voluntary humanitarian migration, it would be mostly migration into Israel, not the load them in the backs of lorries or on boats and send them off to other countries.

You make a good point but I can't imagine they'd want to settle there if they had a choice.

They do. Most Gazan Palestinians are refugees from what is now Israel. They do want to return to their homes in Israel, but Israel has refused them their UN right of return for decades.

I did not say that my feelings are more important then theirs at all. I said that I would not buy a book with that title for personal trauma reasons.
Well I don’t think there is a book with that title is there? <confused>

@Fussandmisery 🤔It is confusing, reading the thread back!
That was in reference to the deleted post who was saying that she could write a book titled "Palestinian non-violent resistance"...

I don’t think she meant it literally.

It depends what is meant by 'flooding'.

The tunnels vary in size from 6 feet high x 4 feet wide, to those large enough to drive a car through. There are, apparently, 350/450 miles of them.

If anyone would like to calculate how much (sea) water it would take to fill them all up completely, feel free.

https://www.calculator.net/volume-calculator.html

(It sounds like a Maths paper years ago that I failed BTW)

The IDF are very aware that ;
a) the hostages are down there somewhere and
b) there are fresh water aquifers under Gaza, from where Gazans obtain some of their water.

So it follows that not all tunnels are suitable to be flooded (to avoid contaminating the aquifers) and the depth aimed for will probably be a few inches.
The IDF will have taken advice on this, as they don't seek to drown people, rather to make it a bit uncomfortable for them.

Why do you think that Hamas is now so keen to 'come to the Table' ?

Really? Is that like how they had no interest in destroying gaza, just going after Hamas, so it was crazy unreasonable to say they were reducing it to rubble, then oops, we destroyed 60% of it in 3 months??

I don't trust them at all. This is just their playbook and unfortunately we'll only know it's definitely bullshit once they've contaminated the aquifer, as set out in that terrifying link above.