Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

I would agree with you, but as anti-semitic attacks/incidents have soared since that attacks on 7th Oct, I don't think that will happen

Well there you are then. That’s your answer.
The marches support one side or the other. Never both.

I mean the pro Palestinian marches don’t support the Israelis but a march calling for the surrender of Hamas and the return of the hostages would not necessarily support the people in Gaza.

The obvious thing to do would be to just support ceasefire rather than one particular side but my understanding is that some of the marches are actually doing that? Haven’t been to any though so can’t really say.

I want Hamas to surrender and give up the hostages.
The majority of sane rational people want that but disagree with how it can be achieved. Many don't feel killing, displacing and starving tens of thousands of innocent Gazans is a just or appropriate way of achieving it.

Then the deaths will cease.
How can you be so sure of that?

I want a ceasefire to protect Israel, just like Ofer Cassif

And here

Then the deaths will cease
They’re civilian deaths though that’s the trouble.

It’s a war, so both sides are going to keep killing each other until a ceasefire. Do you think Hamas is required to do nothing while the Israeli Government is killing over a hundred Palestinian civilians every day?

Pro ceasefire is also Pro Israel. It is only anti-Likud government.

There was no ceasefire in place prior to October 6th. October 7th was a massive escalation in hostilities (rockets, terror attacks, etc) that were going on weekly prior to it.

The Cultural Revolution, the bit that caused famine and executions happened 17yrs after the Communists took control. There is no way that a ceasefire between the NRA (National Revolutionary Army) and CCP (Chinese Communist Party) caused these excess deaths.

Don’t forget Chiang Kai Shek was a dictator who was promoted to “Generalissimo” after Sun Yat Sen who had taken over China by overthrowing their monarchy (emperor). He wasn’t a “President” of China in any democratic sense.

While I can’t blame MacArthur for writing a bit a Red Scare 1950s propaganda that was all the rage in the US, I can blame you for falling for it.

This is what I’m struggling to understand. Children suffering and dying anywhere is absolutely heartbreaking.

And After over 9 years of war, Yemen remains one of the world's worst humanitarian crises. In April 2022, a UN-brokered truce offered the longest period of respite to civilians since the start of the war.

From https://civil-protection-humanitarian-aid.ec.europa.eu/where/middle-east-and-northern-africa/yemen_en#:~:text=After%20over%209%20years%20of,the%20start%20of%20the%20war.

A ceasefire would be beneficial to Yemen as well. More escalation and bombing is bad for Yemen. If you care about Yemen you would naturally want a ceasefire.

And it's not only the sheer horrifying death figures that people are protesting over, but also the destruction of Gazan Infrastructure which has rendered large parts of Gaza uninhabitable. Over 30% of essential infrastructure has been destroyed by the Israeli attack

The BBC shared this drone footage of Gaza today. The damage and destruction is hard to even comprehend.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-67977694

It is literally beyond me why anyone would not want a ceasefire. How could anyone justify the continuation of a slaughter?

There was no ceasefire for Palestinians on 6 October: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-killed-during-settler-assault-west-bank-town-palestinian-officials-2023-10-06/ ...

... or on 5 October: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/5/israeli-troops-kill-two-palestinians-in-occupied-west-bank-clash ...

... or on 4 October: https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/137913!

As a matter of fact, 2023 - before 7 October - to Palestinians was an exceptionally deadly year. More Palestinians were killed on the West Bank than even in 2002 (which would have been at the height of the 2nd intifada): https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/palestinians-west-bank-2023-was-deadliest-year-record

People who keep on claiming this, I can only surmise, mean "things went reasonably alright for Israel". To those of us who have Palestinian friends or family - or even just to people to whom Palestinian lives matter as much or as little as Israeli ones - that has never been, can never be "a ceasefire".

Assault of various types is a very different kettle of fish to open conflict between a terrorist group and a Sovereign Power's military.

Let's not deliberately poison the well by confusing these two very different situations.

If there was no ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian terrorist groups, why exactly was a majority of Gazans not in favour of Hamas breaching the ceasefire?

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah#:~:text=Overall%2C%2057%25%20of%20Gazans%20express,who%20support%20Fatah%20(64%25).

See The Guardian attachment from May 2023 also.

There WAS a ceasefire which was deliberately and knowingly broken by Hamas on 7th October 2023.

That's not true.

Months later, open conflict between Sovereign Power Israel and Hamas as well as PIJ in addition to Hezbollah and the Houthis.

7th October 2023 was a NEW round of conflict.

60 million dead rather disqualifies any sneering about "scares"

There WAS a ceasefire which was deliberately and knowingly broken by Hamas on 7th October 2023.

Tell that to the mourning families of Palestinians killed and imprisoned!

You do not get to arbitrarily declare that "a ceasefire" is defined as "only people whose deaths I do not, personally, care about are getting killed". That is just really not how any of this works!

Settlers, protected and more often than not aided directly, by the army have been killing, maiming and terrorising Palestinians all along.

And, yes, Palestinian lives matter as much as Israeli ones do!!!

FWIW, I want Israeli hostages released and for residents of evacuated towns to be able to go home - but I demand the same for Palestinians. Because they are not "less". If Israelis must be safe (and they must), so must Palestinians. If they get get to vote for their own leaders and exercise democratic sovereignty, this is equally as true for Palestinians. If it is a crime (and it is!) for Israelis to be taken at random and imprisoned without a fair trial, then it is for Palestinians (and, for the record: no, military courts with a ~100% conviction rate do not count either - never even mind "administrative detention"). If Israelis do not want to be randomly attacked and driven off their fields during harvest seasons: neither do Palestinians!

In short: everything Israelis deserve: so do Palestinians!

You are deliberately poisoning the well by creating confusion over settler attacks and that between a Sovereign Power and a terrorist group.

These are two very different situations and not the same.

There was a clear ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian terrorist groups. Two pieces of evidence have been provided to you.

And YOU don't get to decide there wasn't a ceasefire in place officially from 13th May 2023 to 7th October 2023. 🤷‍♂️

With all due respect: it is not prescisely as though the state is not capable of controlling its own citizens. Especially not when it is sending its soldiers to aid them.

If Israel was capable of clearing out Gaza settlers, you cannot plausibly claim that "oh, but, but, but, ... our hands are tied when our citizens terrorise people whom, as the occupier under international law, we are tasked with keeping safe".

That is just not how any of this works!

More than 200 Palestinians were killed on the West Bank in 2023 - before 7 October!

If you are, seriously, going to claim "oh, but: not state violence, poor, poor Israel was powerless to stop it [expect of course when it was the army doing the killing, not settlers]" ...

... well, then you better push for international intervention or something! Because a state incapable of stopping rampant violence against one particular group - despite its best efforts - is, essentially, a failed state and in need of urgent assistance (and, no, I do not mean "more free bombs from the USA).

That is not what you mean, of course.

"If Israel was capable of clearing out Gaza settlers, you cannot plausibly claim that "oh, but, but, but, ... our hands are tied when our citizens terrorise people whom, as the occupier under international law, we are tasked with keeping safe"

Strawman Argument Fallacy. 🤷‍♂️

Acts of violence by one group to another is not prima facie terrorism. As I said, poisoning the well is what you're doing.

"More than 200 Palestinians were killed on the West Bank in 2023 - before 7 October!"

This wasn't in the context of a conflict between a Sovereign Power and a non-governmental group.

Deaths since 7th October 2023 ARE within the context of a conflict between a Sovereign Power and a non-governmental group.

Poisoning the well deliberately. Correlation is not causation. 🤦‍♂️

"If you are, seriously, going to claim "oh, but: not state violence, poor, poor Israel was powerless to stop it [expect of course when it was the army doing the killing, not settlers]" ..."

Strawman Argument Fallacy.

Deaths attributable to a Sovereign Power's military are not necessarily within that of a conflict between themselves and a terrorist group.

Indeed, deaths attributable to legitimate militaries CAN and DO happen in other contexts. E.g., Military Aid To The Civil Power, security operations, etc.

"well, then you better push for international intervention or something! Because a state incapable of stopping rampant violence against one particular group - despite its best efforts - is, essentially, a failed state and in need of urgent assistance (and, no, I do not mean "more free bombs from the USA)."

Strawman Argument Fallacy.

You have utterly failed to argue against the reality there WAS a ceasefire in May 2023 between the State of Israel and Palestinian terrorist groups.

This ceasefire was reported on by various media outlets. I provided the Guardian. Appeal To Emotion Fallacy isn't the way to argue against it. 🤷‍♂️

I repeat 7th October 2023 was a NEW round of conflict.

Is your months long persistence based on pure emotion and logical fallacies a long winded, sneaking regarder way of attempting to minimise the severity of what Hamas did?

Do you accept or not that Hamas has led the people of Gaza and the region to catastrophe?

Exactly what Clinton said to Arafat in 2002 and here we are. Palestinians once again failed by Palestinian leaders who don't really care about them...🤔

Technically you are probably correct DownNative, plus Hamas are* not *involved with the West Bank as far as I’m aware, but I can see how mistreatment and violence directed at the Palestinians there would have people questioning how peaceable Israel’s intentions are.

Yes there was a ceasefire on 13 May 2023, but it wasn’t still in place on Oct 7th. Months later? Try 3 days later!

IDF did an airstrike on Gaza three days later on 16 May 2023
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/world/middleeast/israel-airstrikes-gaza.html

IDF did airstrikes on Gaza on 21 June 2023
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/15/middleeast/israel-airstrikes-gaza-june-15-intl/index.html

IDF did air strikes on Gaza for three straight days on 22,23 and 24 Sept 2023.
https://www.npr.org/2023/09/24/1201381201/an-israeli-military-raid-has-killed-two-palestinians-in-the-west-bank

All of the above were Israel striking Hamas targets.

@DownNative
Let's not deliberately poison the well by confusing these two very different situations.

I agree, so let us stop with the myth of a ceasefire being in place on Oct 7th.

That’s what the US history books call it. That’s why I capitalised it. It’s not me “sneering,”
https://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/red-scare

Read & Learn.