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Conflict in the Middle East

Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

920 replies

Toggenburgsaregreat · 15/01/2024 10:01

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

OP posts:
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BelleHathor · 15/01/2024 23:47

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 15/01/2024 23:37

I can't see that on mainstream news?

Not being reported in the West yet, but journalist in the region are reporting
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-january-15-2024/

Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire
lettherebepeaceintheworld · 15/01/2024 23:56

BelleHathor · 15/01/2024 23:47

Not being reported in the West yet, but journalist in the region are reporting
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-january-15-2024/

Oh no. Thanks for sharing.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 16/01/2024 00:14

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 15/01/2024 23:00

I don't think it's right for you to use language like this especially the word genocidal at this country's Premier. Genocide had not been proven and how is Sunak genocidist when he is PM of a country thousands of miles away. Are you saying they every leader that supports a country's right to defend themselves genocidist?

Sorry, that's very wrong in my view.

Thank you for standing up for our poor, poor PM, only a lowely and outcast billionnaire (or ... spouse of one - I suppose that, technically, the InfoSys billions are hers, not his)!

Our "rich and powerful" need more brave and courageous defenders like yourself who tell off ordinary citizens - such as myself - for being ... not going to use diplomatic language here ... really fucking pissed off to the max ... over 70%+ of the electorate demanding one thing and our bastard PM doing the exact opposite!

For the record: I am (well, technically "will have used to be" ... I have, literally, tendered my resignation over "we dropped EVERY Russian client but are STILL serving the IDF ... WTAF, I am OUT?!) a "net beneficiary" of "unfettered capitalism". This shit has made me very rich! I STILL think it is blatantly wrong!!!

Scirocco · 16/01/2024 00:24

untitledmum · 15/01/2024 23:02

I understand that it if you have family/friends in Gaza, then perhaps its harder to align yourself with freeing Israeli hostages as they're seen as the enemy.
But I'm assuming that a very large number of UK people attending these ceasefire protests do not have direct connection to Gaza. And I've seen many people attending are claiming to be objective, and that they care about the lives of "all" civilians, so why aren't we seeing the lives of the Israeli hostages represented at the protests alongside the Gazan civilians?

I do not see innocent people being held hostage as 'the enemy'.

And of course release of all hostages must be part of any ceasefire.

What I've found is that many people who want to see an end to the destruction of Gaza have a great deal of empathy for the people taken hostage, injured and killed in the October 7th attacks and their families. However, my experience has been that there has been a distinct lack of empathy or even concern for Palestinians and other people in Gaza, from people supporting the IDF's action in Gaza - "collateral damage", "animals", "collaborators"... all things I've heard depressingly often. "All lives" should matter, but don't to a lot of people, sadly.

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 16/01/2024 00:24

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

HeidiInTheBigCity · 16/01/2024 00:58

Scirocco · 16/01/2024 00:24

I do not see innocent people being held hostage as 'the enemy'.

And of course release of all hostages must be part of any ceasefire.

What I've found is that many people who want to see an end to the destruction of Gaza have a great deal of empathy for the people taken hostage, injured and killed in the October 7th attacks and their families. However, my experience has been that there has been a distinct lack of empathy or even concern for Palestinians and other people in Gaza, from people supporting the IDF's action in Gaza - "collateral damage", "animals", "collaborators"... all things I've heard depressingly often. "All lives" should matter, but don't to a lot of people, sadly.

Everything you said ... except: you said it better:

On 9 October (a Monday), I rang up a colleague who I knew would be sympathetic (and familiar with my personal connections) and said: "please call XY, because - you might not know this but I would - he is Jewish, has Israeli citizenship and will be feeling devastated - and please give him emotional support and send my love and: he will understand exactly why I feel I am the exact wrong person to reach out - but feel free to say I suggested. He will get it!

A week before Christmas, I actually met XY at a "it was inevitable" dinner and drinks thingamajig! Everyone was terrified ... what actually happened: we had a lovely conversation about "how shit and how lonely we both feel" ... in Arabic. Everyone else did not get it (because we spoke Arabic).

I have a lot more empathy for XY than for many posters on here who do not get what it is like when it is "your loved ones". And he is the same towards me!

Maybe it is just the "we share a [literal] language that everyone else at the table does not understand" - or maybe it is "the same - but it is metaphorical rather than linguistic". I could never hate him. Not even resent him. And the feeling is completely mutual. It is people like Rishi Sunak I deeply resent and blame - not my Jewish Israeli colleague in whose mother tongue I can reasonably have a "we feel for each other - even though we disagree" conversation! In Arabic, I can tell him "I sobbed like a child when I saw the news on 7 October" - and in Arabic he can tell me "I understand why you feel worried sick that your friend in prison might be tortured to death".

Why can we not do this in English, with people who have less skin in the game?!

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 01:29

Dazedandcovidconfused · 15/01/2024 20:51

  • end of illegal occupation- roll back the settlements
  • End of apartheid - give Palestine’s equal rights
  • Stop the genocide immediately - end to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Hope that’s cleared up the confusion for you OP.

Thanks for that.

OP posts:
OP posts:
Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 01:33

One opinion - https://www.ft.com/content/c66a747b-a652-4dad-b1fc-377201120a3c

OP posts:
Scirocco · 16/01/2024 07:53

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 01:31

It seems that the boil is finally coming to a head....

https://www.ft.com/content/92023201-01db-4338-8266-322cfb4988d4

What a horrible phrase to use.

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 08:34

Scirocco · 16/01/2024 07:53

What a horrible phrase to use.

What is your objection to this phrase?

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Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 09:27

Dazedandcovidconfused · 15/01/2024 20:51

  • end of illegal occupation- roll back the settlements
  • End of apartheid - give Palestine’s equal rights
  • Stop the genocide immediately - end to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Hope that’s cleared up the confusion for you OP.

To return to your post.

No, it hasn't stopped any 'confusion', just created more.

To respond to your points:

  • end of illegal occupation- roll back the settlements

It's a moot point that settlements are in fact 'illegal'.
Illegal outposts are Jewish communities in the West Bank established without approval from the Israeli government. Today, there are about 200 illegal outposts in the West Bank. They range in size from a few tents or caravans on a hilltop to developed settlements with houses and infrastructure that resemble those of legal communities. (There are 127 legal settlements in the West Bank.)

However, it is entirely possible for Israel, if they had the will, to remove these settlements.

  • End of apartheid - give Palestine’s equal rights

Now this presents a more knotty problem.

In 1948 when Israel annexed Jerusalem it offered the Arabs living there Israeli Citizenship.
Most refused.

In 1949 when Jordan annexed the West Bank they offered the Arabs living there Jordanian Citizenship.
Some refused.

Consequently some Arabs living in the Occupied Territories are de facto stateless although most have be given 'Permanent Residency'

Arab Israelis do not have to serve in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), the country’s military. They can still enlist, and some do, especially Druze and Circassians, but some are stigmatized in their communities as a result. Yet, not enlisting can significantly disadvantage them both socially and economically. For instance, many Israelis make important and lasting personal connections with their fellow citizens through the IDF, and they also receive many financial benefits, such as education assistance and discounted permits for building homes and owning land.

This is a choice that they make themselves and Israel can't be blamed for that.

While Palestinian refugees cannot obtain citizenship they can at least live in Israel. Other countries in the region won't take them in.

No-one will accept Palestinian refugees - not even the Muslim states that pretend to support them.

  • They were accepted by Jordan, where they tried to assassinate the King and take over the country, teamed up with Syria and triggered a full-scale war.
  • They were ejected into Syria, where they caused problems and were forced out into Lebanon.
  • In Lebanon, they helped trigger a civil war that has utterly destroyed the country.
  • In Egypt, they fomented terror attacks. Egypt classifies Hamas as a terror group and closed the border long ago. Their defences against Gazan incursion look like the Berlin wall:
  • In Kuwait they supported the invading Iraqis, and were ejected after their defeat.
  • In Gaza, Hamas massacred at least 600 Fatah supporters after they took power.

You last point is about a ceasefire which has been discussed elsewhere in some detail.

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Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 10:21

No-one will accept Palestinian refugees - not even the Muslim states that pretend to support them.

  • They were accepted by Jordan, where they tried to assassinate the King and take over the country, teamed up with Syria and triggered a full-scale war.
  • They were ejected into Syria, where they caused problems and were forced out into Lebanon.
  • In Lebanon, they helped trigger a civil war that has utterly destroyed the country.
  • In Egypt, they fomented terror attacks. Egypt classifies Hamas as a terror group and closed the border long ago. Their defences against Gazan incursion look like the Berlin wall:
  • In Kuwait they supported the invading Iraqis, and were ejected after their defeat.
  • In Gaza, Hamas massacred at least 600 Fatah supporters after they took power.

Hmmmmm, are you trying to say Palestinians are the source of all problems in the Middle East now?

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 16/01/2024 10:34

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 10:21

No-one will accept Palestinian refugees - not even the Muslim states that pretend to support them.

  • They were accepted by Jordan, where they tried to assassinate the King and take over the country, teamed up with Syria and triggered a full-scale war.
  • They were ejected into Syria, where they caused problems and were forced out into Lebanon.
  • In Lebanon, they helped trigger a civil war that has utterly destroyed the country.
  • In Egypt, they fomented terror attacks. Egypt classifies Hamas as a terror group and closed the border long ago. Their defences against Gazan incursion look like the Berlin wall:
  • In Kuwait they supported the invading Iraqis, and were ejected after their defeat.
  • In Gaza, Hamas massacred at least 600 Fatah supporters after they took power.

Hmmmmm, are you trying to say Palestinians are the source of all problems in the Middle East now?

Edited

Gosh I didn't know any of this. Do you have any sources or links for these?

Dazedandcovidconfused · 16/01/2024 10:45

You asked what supporters of Palestine want, the answer is very clear.

Whether you think they ‘deserve’ these things seems to be a different matter.

ConnieCounter · 16/01/2024 10:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DownNative · 16/01/2024 11:06

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 10:21

No-one will accept Palestinian refugees - not even the Muslim states that pretend to support them.

  • They were accepted by Jordan, where they tried to assassinate the King and take over the country, teamed up with Syria and triggered a full-scale war.
  • They were ejected into Syria, where they caused problems and were forced out into Lebanon.
  • In Lebanon, they helped trigger a civil war that has utterly destroyed the country.
  • In Egypt, they fomented terror attacks. Egypt classifies Hamas as a terror group and closed the border long ago. Their defences against Gazan incursion look like the Berlin wall:
  • In Kuwait they supported the invading Iraqis, and were ejected after their defeat.
  • In Gaza, Hamas massacred at least 600 Fatah supporters after they took power.

Hmmmmm, are you trying to say Palestinians are the source of all problems in the Middle East now?

Edited

The OP clearly isn't saying that at all and was obviously stating one of the main reasons why neighbouring Arab States don't want to take in Palestinian refugees.

Any other suggestion doesn't follow.

Are you able to address their points in the bit you selected at all?

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 11:14

The OP clearly isn't saying that at all and was obviously stating one of the main reasons why neighbouring Arab States don't want to take in Palestinian refugees.

Perhaps. But saying that no-one wants the Palestinians because they (as a homogeneous group) just cause trouble has a slight whiff of stereotyping about it.

I’m sure some terrorists/assassins /causers of problems are Palestinians but I’m sure plenty aren’t.

Dulra · 16/01/2024 11:30

And the dehumanising goes on. @Fussandmisery* *that post is a pretty horrible blanket stereotype of an entire population. Replace Palestinian with any other nation and there would be uproar and rightly so. You repeat "they" continually. Who are the "they"? The innocent children and babies killed and dying of starvation

Dulra · 16/01/2024 11:32

Apologies @Fussandmisery I tagged the wrong person. I meant @Toggenburgsaregreat

DownNative · 16/01/2024 11:33

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 11:14

The OP clearly isn't saying that at all and was obviously stating one of the main reasons why neighbouring Arab States don't want to take in Palestinian refugees.

Perhaps. But saying that no-one wants the Palestinians because they (as a homogeneous group) just cause trouble has a slight whiff of stereotyping about it.

I’m sure some terrorists/assassins /causers of problems are Palestinians but I’m sure plenty aren’t.

If you believe that to be the case, why don't you construct a PROPER argument against it instead of mere rhetoric?

It's true that neighbouring Arab States haven't forgotten the history the OP set out. Due to that they don't want Palestinians leaving Gaza as it would saddle them with the Gazans permanently. History shows their territory will then ne used to launch attacks against Israel which threatens the security of their States.

Egypt, for example, cites this in addition to saying any future Palestinian State has to be fully demilitarised.

These States feel they cannot take that risk. Egypt doesn't want to risk any link up between Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas in their territory, so say no too.

The logic is since Israel isn't going anywhere and cannot be militarily defeated by Palestinian terrorist groups, the next best thing is to ensure Palestinians cannot rebuild terrorist weapons capabilities in future. And change the governing authority in Gaza.

See Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman's comments in 2018 too.

"Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best."

Otto von Bismarck

Whatever is attainable becomes the priority.

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 11:48

If you believe that to be the case, why don't you construct a PROPER argument against it instead of mere rhetoric?
It is a proper argument.
Palestinian Israelis can’t have citizenship but it’s fine because no other country will even have them? I mean come on.
It’s the terrorists they don’t want but not all Palestinians are terrorists.

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 11:52

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 10:21

No-one will accept Palestinian refugees - not even the Muslim states that pretend to support them.

  • They were accepted by Jordan, where they tried to assassinate the King and take over the country, teamed up with Syria and triggered a full-scale war.
  • They were ejected into Syria, where they caused problems and were forced out into Lebanon.
  • In Lebanon, they helped trigger a civil war that has utterly destroyed the country.
  • In Egypt, they fomented terror attacks. Egypt classifies Hamas as a terror group and closed the border long ago. Their defences against Gazan incursion look like the Berlin wall:
  • In Kuwait they supported the invading Iraqis, and were ejected after their defeat.
  • In Gaza, Hamas massacred at least 600 Fatah supporters after they took power.

Hmmmmm, are you trying to say Palestinians are the source of all problems in the Middle East now?

Edited

@Fussandmisery Hmmmmm, are you trying to say Palestinians are the source of all problems in the Middle East now?

I'm posting facts.

How people interpret them is up to them.

OP posts:
DownNative · 16/01/2024 11:55

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 11:48

If you believe that to be the case, why don't you construct a PROPER argument against it instead of mere rhetoric?
It is a proper argument.
Palestinian Israelis can’t have citizenship but it’s fine because no other country will even have them? I mean come on.
It’s the terrorists they don’t want but not all Palestinians are terrorists.

No, you haven't made a proper argument against it which would include undermining their list of examples.

But the list of examples happened, didn't they?

Those events along with the potential for inability to return is why they don't want Palestinians en masse, isn't it?

Those Arab States have acknowledged Palestinians have been failed by Palestinian leaders for decades, haven't they?

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 11:58

But the list of examples happened, didn't they?
Im not saying they didnt. Are you actually understanding what I’m saying?