Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

I'll try and look them up when I have a minute but here's one for starters.

I have posted the whole article to stop being accused of being 'selective' but the salient paragraphs are these -

"Today, Egyptian nationality can be granted to Palestinians but only in a strict set of circumstances, which bars the majority from naturalising and obtaining many basic rights, prompting criticism from those who sympathise with the Palestinian plight in the country.
However, others defend this position, arguing that granting Palestinians Egyptian nationality would jeopardise their identity and cause. This argument goes back to the Arab League's resolution 462 issued in 1952, which stipulated that the League's policy towards the Palestinian refugees needed to be based on the principle of their eventual return, and guarded against naturalisation. "

"The assassination of then culture minister, Yusuf Al-Sibai in early 1978 at the hands of a militant Palestinian faction also played a decisive role in Egypt's new hostility towards its Palestinian refugees. This attitude has only deteriorated since, apart from a short period of relative respite during the years of the 2011 January revolution and the rule of late president Mohammed Morsi (2012-13). "

"In the aftermath of the 2013 military coup, Egyptian media platforms accused Palestinians of agitating for the revolution, infiltrating Egypt's borders, and organising jailbreaks."

https://www.newarab.com/features/no-recognition-no-rights-palestinians-egypt

I don't think they are understanding. The list of examples may have happened but the blanket use of the word "they" when talking about an entire people is inappropriate and unnecessary. Be specific about who "they" are because it is definitely not the people currently losing their lives and homes and families. It is clinical and dehumanising

@lettherebepeaceintheworld More info here;

Relevant paragraphs :

"Egypt has so far rejected the idea of displaced Palestinians moving into Sinai. But there is the possibility that a large number of Gazans will seek entry. This is separate to the Gaza residents with foreign citizenship who are already waiting at the border to cross.
Egypt is against allowing Gazans crossing the border in large numbers because it opposes any encroachment on its sovereignty in the Sinai Peninsula. Its major concern is that displaced Palestinians may establish a permanent residence in its territory, potentially undermining the already delicate security and economic situation.
The situation also poses a large security risk to Egypt.
First, border breaches by refugees from Gaza, some of whom may be armed individuals affiliated with Hamas or other radical groups, could export instability to Sinai. For Egypt, there is a danger that there could be more terrorist attacks and instability as there were in Sinai before the 2017 understanding with Hamas. Some of those attacks were carried out by well-armed and trained Gaza-based militant cells."

https://theconversation.com/hamas-israeli-conflict-whats-at-stake-for-egypt-215710

Are you more interested in semantics than facts?

Are you more interested in semantics than facts?
You’re making a generalisation.

Your facts do not address your original question. Why are people looking for a ceasefire and what it can achieve. You appear to be focused now on demonstrating why Palestinians don't matter

Why are you highly selective in responding? 🤷‍♂️

"You appear to be focused now on demonstrating why Palestinians don't matter"

I never said that they "didn't matter", so please don't put words in my mouth.

I can't help it if the facts don't support your notion of Palestinians as victims.

Why are you highly selective in responding?
What do you mean?

@Toggenburgsaregreat so, do you think that Palestinians matter?

What are your thoughts on over 23,000 people dying in Gaza?

Do want me to comment on all your points? Ok I’ll do that.

No, you haven't made a proper argument against it which would include undermining their list of examples.
I don’t need to. I’m arguing they’re being unfair to say all Palestinians should be considered violent/troublemaker's. I don’t need to deny some of them are.

But the list of examples happened, didn't they?
I assume they did

Those events along with the potential for inability to return is why they don't want Palestinians en masse, isn't it?
It’s not the only reason. They don’t want Israel to “win” and gain control of the Palestinians territories.

Also there are a lot jihadist factions (this so called axis of resistance) and I doubt the Palestinians are in control of it. It’s more to do with Iran isn’t it?

Those Arab States have acknowledged Palestinians have been failed by Palestinian leaders for decades, haven't they?
I don’t know. Hamas is probably not well thought of.

The above comment was for DownNative

" so, do you think that Palestinians matter?"

All lives matter.

"What are your thoughts on over 23,000 people dying in Gaza?"

The same as I think about 357,000 killed in Yemen, 300,000 killed in Darfur, 506,000+ in the Syrian Civil War (still ongoing), 383,000+ in the South Sudanese Civil War, 520,000 due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine (still ongoing) - a terrible tragedy.

"I don’t need to. I’m arguing they’re being unfair to say all Palestinians should be considered violent/troublemaker's. I don’t need to deny some of them are."

That's not what the OP said. So, you do need to since you're misrepresenting their point on those examples. 🤦‍♂️

"It’s not the only reason. They don’t want Israel to “win” and gain control of the Palestinians territories."

On the contrary, the two reasons I gave is the main reasons for not taking in Palestinian refugees.

The direction of travel from 1973 to 2023 is Arab States normalisation of relations with Israel. Beginning with Egypt and close to it with Saudi when Hamas attacked.

"...there are a lot jihadist factions (this so called axis of resistance) and I doubt the Palestinians are in control of it. It’s more to do with Iran isn’t it?"

A clear majority of Palestinians support Palestinian terrorist groups in both Gaza and the West Bank.

Iran funds them, but these groups can operate independently of Iran including manufacturing weapons inside Gaza themselves. Weapons capabilities have massively improved since 2008.

So, if all lives matter and the deaths of over 23,000 people in Gaza are a terrible tragedy, what are your thoughts on what should be done next?

That's not what the OP said. So, you do need to since you're misrepresenting their point on those examples
Am I though? She hasn’t confirmed it either way. And if that isn’t what she meant I’m not clear what her point was.

On the contrary, the two reasons I gave is the main reasons for not taking in Palestinian refugees
Yes but not the only reasons. I’m not sure how you would define the “main” reasons

A clear majority of Palestinians support Palestinian terrorist groups in both Gaza and the West Bank.
And why is that?

My opinion is, in line with Biden, that we need to deal directly with the source of the problem which is Iran, designated in 1984 as a purveyor of State Sponsored of Terrorism.

Iran continued its support for terrorist-related activity including support for Hezbollah, Palestinian, Houthis and various terrorist and militant groups in Iraq, Gaza (Hamas) Syria, Bahrain, and elsewhere throughout the Middle East.

Iran uses the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps-Qods Force (IRGC-QF) to provide financial support to terrorist organizations, provide cover for associated covert operations, and create instability in the region.

Iran doesn't want to get it's hands dirty and wants to be able to distance itself from the activities of it's proxies. The cynical joke at the moment is that 'Iran will fight to the last Houthi, but not the last Iranian". ( ! )

That's why I was surprised when Iran showed it's hand and directly attacked targets in Iraq and Syria yesterday. Hence my comment about a 'boil coming to a head' (Which someone actually took offence at )

Biden has already sent a message to Iran. No-one know what that is, but I assume it's along the lines of 'cease and desist or else'.

The ball is now in Iran's court.

What do you think should happen to the people of Gaza while people are 'dealing' with Iran?

Palestinians are not terrorists, Hamas are. Let's be precise here, otherwise it sounds like every single Palestinian (babies, children for example) is a terrorist, and, according to the Israeli government, needs to be eliminated.
I am sure, it isn't what you mean or is it?

"Am I though? She hasn’t confirmed it either way. And if that isn’t what she meant I’m not clear what her point was."

I believe OP has. Its clear some have been willfully misinterpreting their post to suit their own narrative. 🤔

"Yes but not the only reasons. I’m not sure how you would define the “main” reasons."

The States themselves have stated these reasons.

"And why is that?"

It is neither understandable nor valid for any proportion of any society to support any terrorist group that's dedicated to murder and destruction.

So, you're not denying there is widespread support amongst Palestinians for multiple terrorist groups.

Good to see that admission. 👍

@DownNative I think part of the reason for an increase in people in Palestine who can see an argument for armed resistance is that they are experiencing the destruction of their society, the deaths of their loved ones, oppression, and the realisation that nobody is coming to help them. If somebody bombed your home, killed your family, took your land, you couldn't even leave and seek asylum elsewhere, and nobody was defending you, wouldn't you feel like you would have to defend yourself and your surviving loved ones? Unfortunately, when people find themselves in that situation, they become vulnerable to groups like Hamas, who present themselves as the only people 'standing up for' the people of Gaza, and so people get drawn into their orbit. The most effective way of dismantling the 'ideals' of Hamas would be to put an end to the bloodshed and oppression pushing people further towards a desperate mindset that is vulnerable to such organisations in a search for any way to protect their loved ones, and to engage in meaningful dialogue towards peace and a 2-state solution.

(Please note: not condoning, just understanding)

I believe OP has.
No she hasn’t but she can speak for herself you know.

The States themselves have stated these reasons
Yes I know but it would be naive to assume that the only members of the terrorist networks are Palestinian. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded by an Egyptian I believe. Plus it’s not as if not as if other people don’t resort to such tactics. Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish Israeli not a Palestinian. Singling the Palestinians out as the terrorist people is odd.

So, you're not denying there is widespread support amongst Palestinians for multiple terrorist groups.
According to a poll by the Washington Institute (prior to the war) 50% of Palestinians wanted Hamas to stop calling for Israel’s destruction and support for maintaining ceasefire was 60%. . I’m not sure what it would be now.

No, the majority support for Palestinian terrorist groups is NOT new or as a result of Israeli military operations since 7th October.

Interesting you called it "armed resistance" rather than terrorism. Are you a sneaking regarder?

Leaving Hamas in situ absolutely would NOT be the "most effective way of dismantling the 'ideals' of Hamas"! 🤦‍♂️

That shows you don't really understand terrorist ideology.

For a terrorist group to lose support from whatever proportion of the population that supports them, they would have to be ideologically destroyed (this is possible) and/or fully militarily defeated.

Otherwise, Hamas will remain in power in Gaza continuing to indoctrinate a whole new generation of young people to take up the mantle of terrorism beginning in Gazan schools.

BTW, I have dealt with terrorist groups and never believed taking up arms would solve our own conflict. 🤷‍♂️

Arafat, Hamas and other Palestinian leaders absolutely have led Palestinians to catastrophe. Bill Clinton was right in 2002 and he's still right in 2024....

"No she hasn’t but she can speak for herself you know."

OP did post their position. 🤦‍♂️

"Yes I know but it would be naive to assume that the only members of the terrorist networks are Palestinian. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded by an Egyptian I believe. Plus it’s not as if not as if other people don’t resort to such tactics. Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish Israeli not a Palestinian. Singling the Palestinians out as the terrorist people is odd."

Who is saying that the "only members of the terrorist networks are Palestinian"?! Strawman Argument Fallacy.

Whataboutery re: other people resorting to terrorism.

"Singling the Palestinians out as the terrorist people is odd."

The topic of this thread is Palestinians and Palestinian terrorist groups vis a vis ceasefires.

It's blatantly not about others such as PIRA, ETA, FARC, ISIS, AQ, etc. So of course the focus IS going to be on Palestinians as that's the scope of the discussion. It would be odd to deflect attention by using unrelated terrorist campaigns and groups outwith the context of Gaza.

Christ. 🤦‍♂️

OP did post their position
Yes but I don’t agree with it

Who is saying that the "only members of the terrorist networks are Palestinian"?! Strawman Argument Fallacy.
Whos saying I’m saying anyone’s saying that?
My point was that it’s wrong to imply the Arab states have banned Palestinians because they are the ones who cause all the trouble.

Whataboutery re: other people resorting to terrorism.
I’m not allowed to mention what other people are doing? Why is that? Bit bloody difficult to make a comparison if I can’t.

It would be odd to deflect attention by using unrelated terrorist campaigns and groups outwith the context of Gaza
I don’t think the examples I’ve actually given (as opposed to the ones on your list) are unrelated to the wider context the OP refers to. what’s happened in Egypt, Lebonon, Jordon and so on.