Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

The issue is that you have Hamas leaders saying now, in January 2024, that they reject a two state solution. Getting caught up in charter details or who voted when is a distraction.

That's interesting, when when GB is regularly having brickbats thrown at it over our 'Colonial Past' and being assailed by people/groups/organisations wanting reparation

Not at all, it shows motivation and mindset.

They did, in 2017. You are quoting from the 1988 one.
The 2017 one under the heading "The position toward Occupation and Political Solutions" (paragraphs 18 to 23), accepts and describes the two-state solution, i.e. the creation of an independent Palestinian state according to the 1967 borders with Jerusalem as its capital.

Here's a link

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full.

I'm not a fan of the group
I consider them to be terrorists, and the atrocity they committed in October is wholly inexcusable and disgusting.

But I have a real bugbear for inaccuracy 😂

The issue is that you have Hamas leaders and Netanyahu saying now, in January 2024, that they reject a two state solution.

you forgot about something in your sentence but I’ve corrected it for you

The people voted based on Hamas official political truce offers to Israel, which had been consistently reflective of the two state solution along 1967 borders since 1988.

A timeline of Hamas truce proposals:

1988: Just one year after the group was founded, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar met the late top Israeli officials Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres, and proposed that Israel withdraw from the 1967-occupied territories in exchange for a truce. This was before Hamas had built its armed wing, the Qassam Brigades. Also, in 1988, Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmad Yasin himself indicated a willingness to negotiate with Israel under the condition that it “first acknowledge the Palestinian people’s right to self-determination and right of return to their land”.

1994: Hamas offered a truce to Israel after the abduction and killing of Israeli soldier Nachshon Wachsman. A year earlier, the Palestinian Authority (PA) had accepted the proposal of a Palestinian state comprised of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. Hamas agreed to that proposal.

1995: Hamas again proposed a 10-year truce based on the same condition of Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories.

1996: In March, after Israel assassinated Hamas military leader Yahya Ayyash in January, the movement offered a ceasefire.

1997: September: Days before Israel attempted to assassinate Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal in the Jordanian capital, Amman, the movement offered Israel a 10-year truce. October:After his release from Israeli prison, Hamas founder Yasin renewed the call for a ceasefire. November: Hamas again proposed a truce. The Qassam Brigades said attacks against Israeli civilians would stop if Israel stopped targeting Palestinian civilians.

1999: Yasin made another ceasefire offer provided Israel withdrew from the 1967 territories. In a letter to European diplomats, Hamas offered to cease all hostilities in exchange for Israeli withdrawal, evacuation of settlements, and release of Palestinian prisoners.

2003: In December, Yasin offered a ceasefire on the condition that Israel withdraw from the Palestinian territories. He was killed four months later in an Israeli attack.

2004: Yasin’s successor and Hamas co-founder Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi again proposed a 10-year truce. Israel killed him one month after Yasin.

2006: Hamas again offered a 10-year truce that would be “automatically renewed if [Israel] commits to restoring the full and legitimate rights of the Palestinian people to them within a final solution that matches what is accepted by the PLO”. (The PLO had accepted the Oslo Accord of the two state solution, an accord broken by Israel after a far right Israeli assassinated Israeli PM Rabin because the far right didn’t agree with the Oslo peace process)

2007: Senior Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh repeated the group’s call for a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.

2008: Hamas leader Meshaal again offered a 10-year truce, which he repeated a year later.

2014: Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad offered a 10-year truce in exchange for the lifting of the Israeli blockade and release of Palestinian prisoners.

2015: Hamas proposed a long-term ceasefire in exchange for the lifting of the blockade.

2017: Hamas presented its revised charter announcing that it accepted a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders.

Link to timeline source:https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/1/22/how-israel-has-repeatedly-rejected-hamas-truce-offers

This is an issue because war polarises enemies and pushes them further apart. Every bit of death and suffering pushes them that bit farther away from their original more conciliatory view and off whatever common ground they would have if war were not generating emotions of revenge, distrust, and hatred for each other.

The issue is that you have Hamas leaders and Netanyahu saying now, in January 2024, that they reject a two state solution.

Netenyahu can at least be removed through an election (and that can't come soon enough imo, and he's teetering).
Hamas can only be removed militarily if they don't agree of their own accord, which doesn't seem likely.

You linked to Meshaal’s view and he isn’t the leader of Hamas, so we can’t even really say that his view is what Sinwar would agree with. He is more extreme than Sinwar.

Nethanyu is Israel’s PM, similarly he has political leaders under him that are more extreme than him, like Itam Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich who not only reject the two state solution but have also been advocating war crimes.

When you say Hamas who exactly do you mean??

Why is it only necessary to change the leadership of Israel, but insist that the people of Gaza and their land is decimated!

Two state solution is the only viable way forward, they should all get over themselves, and get on with it!

Netanyahu and Hamas have rejected the two state solution multiple times. It’s not because of the war. This has happened in the past as well

Israel would never accept such a solution with Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine as Temple Mount is Holy to Jews.
To the Jews it is Zion, the City of David and Solomon’s temple, and the heartland of the Israelite nation. The Jews call this sacred site in Jerusalem’s Old City Temple Mount after the temple built by Solomon in the 5th century BC.

Apparently Hamas had rejected plans for a ceasefire in Dec 2023

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-islamic-jihad-reject-giving-up-power-return-permanent-ceasefire-egyptian-2023-12-25/

But why would the Palestinians accept a solution or be expected to accept one which doesn't include Al Aqsa? They will never accept that either so what happens then?
I'm not aiming the question at you btw, just generally that this is something that it's unlikely for either side to agree on.

@Parkingt111 "But why would the Palestinians accept a solution or be expected to accept one which doesn't include Al Aqsa? They will never accept that either so what happens then?"

Then we have a stalemate.

Neither side can reconcile themselves to each others fundamental requirements.

In the meantime Gaza gets bombed into oblivion.

@Toggenburgsaregreat the bombing is not continuing because of the lack of agreement on a two state solution though
We are currently not anywhere near that

But yes it's a disgrace that Gaza is being bombed into oblivion

I've just seen on Al Jazeera that a group of Israeli protestors have intentionally blocked humanitarian aid from entering Gaza at the Karam Abu Salem border.

If you are Palestinian, never. If you are pro Israeli government, there is no past before 07/10.

When I say “we” I mean every decent human being should want a ceasefire now. There are no winners in what is happening, there can be no winners
• When thousands of innocent civilians (mostly children) are losing their lives every day
•when babies and toddlers are having their limbs blown off and being left as orphans
•when parents are losing all of their kids
•when families are starving to death
• when thousands are being made homeless
•when hospitals are being bombed and medics taken prisoner
•when vital aid is being denied

Don’t quibble about who is wrong or right. Let’s just insist that it stops now, and then do the political work and negotiations.

@MissyB1 "Let’s just insist that it stops now,"

That's rather simplistic.

Unless, of course, you want to hop on a plane to Dohar and have a word with Hamas and see how far that gets you....

Me too. Thank you

I don't remember saying or even insinuating that Palestinians deserve what they're going through. I remember correcting a poster who was trying to make out that Hamas aren't genocidal. They are.

We can all put pressure on our politicians and remind them they they serve us, and they shouldnt be supporting anything other than a ceasefire. But maybe you dont actually support a ceasefire in which case just say so, dont hide it.