Towards a sustainable peace

[mids2019]

I think for a peace to be obtained constructive dialogue has to be started but in order for this to happen in my opinion Palestine has to acknowledge and their leaders publically denounce the heinous acts of October 7th and make clear such an event will never be repeated.

There have been to many senior Palestinian politicians wishing their grievances to be heard without mentioning October 7th and this will only have the effect of enraging Israel.

We need Palestinian leadership that is willing to sit down with Israeli leaders and from the outset denounce violence specifically making it absolutely clear there will be no 'revenge' for the current Israeli incursion.

We also need to be pragmatic and understand Israel will not be giving Gaza any financial aid so it will be up to the richer gulf states primarily to discuss funding some sort of rebuilding within Gaza. Also eventually there needs to be opportunities for Palestinians to emigrate in order to gain jobs and allow future generations to thrive. I think ultimately you would have to view Gaza as a city state with a multi million rebuilding package coming from those supportive nations in the middle east.

We also need to ensure education in Gaza is such that anti semitiism isn't promoted from a young age so we have a chance for a generation of Palestinians growing up knowing the only way forward is peace.

I think there is a peace to be had if both sides want it and are willing to negotiate positivist with a commitment to prevent terrorism and ensure there is security for both parties.

@DownNative You are giving a very one-sided view of what happened in Northern Ireland and are missing out two crucial factors.

First, the British government changed their view of the Catholic/Irish population from inferior to the Protestant population, to having equal rights. This meant that they stated that they no longer had a ‘selfish’ interest in NI, and would no longer treat Protestant wishes as more important than Catholic ones, and would treat both equally. And so would allow reunification of the majority of the people wanted it.

Second, and most importantly, from the late 70s onwards the British largely acted with restraint. They aimed to win ‘hearts and minds’. They did not react to IRA bombings by attacking IRA supporting areas or communities. They did not drop bombs on the Falls or Ardoyne, even if the majority supported the provos. Instead, they acted with restraint so the IRA looked like the bad guys.

Israel is doing none of this. It has no strategy for a long-term peace.

@theoldweirdalbion

What is the solution though? I can understand Israel ensuring October 7th can never happen again by destroying Hamas militarily.

Yes there may be weapons smuggled into Gaza but surely they. may not be able to organise anything in the scale of October 7th as Hamas will not be in government.

Having local security may mean more targeted defence rather than relying on an air force.

We occupied Afghanistan militarily to prevent terrorism and we have not had another 9/12 so there is president for this.

It was only PIRA who were disarmed, that is correct. The British Army is still very much armed throughout the UK - what, you think a toothless SAS and SRR were dealing with Republicans 2014-17?! 🤦‍♂️

Most soldiers left, but that doesn’t equate with the British Army itself leaving. Especially since it has TWO bases it operates out of and a garrison force plus special forces as/when required. This isn't leaving, but normalisation in keeping with the rest of the national territory.

I'm certainly not arguing with you further on this point as its ridiculous. 🤦‍♂️

What is the solution though? I can understand Israel ensuring October 7th can never happen again by destroying Hamas militarily.

Yes there may be weapons smuggled into Gaza but surely they. may not be able to organise anything in the scale of October 7th as Hamas will not be in government.

If Israel takes control of Gaza obviously the risk of further attacks is reduced but there is going to be a lot of resentment towards Israel for any collective punishments so I expect the violence will continue in one form or another. And that’s assuming Israel is successful in completely stamping Hamas out.

I don’t think there will be any solutions while the extremists are in charge (on both sides). Hamas and Israel’s current government both represent regimes that are completely intolerant and want the other side gone/forcibly removed

@mids2019 the assault on 7/10 actually required very little - mostly small arms and motorbikes - the crucial element was that there were men with no regard either for their own or Israeli lives who were prepared to do it. The only way to prevent it is by driving a wedge between Hamas ideology and the Palestinian people by offering them a fair deal supported, monitored and brokered by the International community which provides real hope for a self-determined future. This obviously won't be easy, and will be much harder after the current situation in Gaza which will be breeding young people who are angry, bitter and have little to live for.

Thank you to all those who replied to me recently disagreeing with my view.

I appreciate your comments but stand by my original opinions.

But that's the beauty of MN - debate!

Peace out.

Israel is not acquiring land - it is defending its borders and its objective is to eradicate Hamas military capabilities. Arab countries will not fight Israel as Israel would overcome such unprovoked attacks as history has shown us from 1948.

There have been radicalised anti-Semites before Israel's existence - the Nazis being the prime example. Even if Israel would give in to every Palestinian demand, more unprovoked attacks would continue . Such is the nature of anti-Semitism.

Peace out.

It feels like some continue to blame Israel for situations like the article below presents. It is becoming a common trope to say Israel radicalises people.
Gas lighting at its most pungent.

Bravo Mr Aviv.

"'Hamas is a terror organisation that does not value human life at all,' Moshe Aviv, head of Israel's National Public Diplomacy Directorate, told The Mail on Sunday.
'This is what led to their criminal and murderous behaviour on October 7.' More than 1,200 Israelis were killed in Hamas's October 7 attacks, with 240 taken hostage.
Mr Aviv added: 'All of this fundamentally stems from the terror education they are given from a young age, from infancy, where they are taught to hate Jews, which leads to terrorism and mass murder.' He accused Hamas of using women, children and the elderly as 'human shields', and said it hid its 'terrorist infrastructure inside and underneath homes, hospitals, mosques, schools and other civilian sites, deliberately putting the Palestinian population at risk'.
Israel also accuses Hamas of using schools and playgrounds to stash weapons. Its military says it found children's backpacks and dolls filled with explosives to target Israeli soldiers.
Mr Aviv said: 'The state of Israel will eliminate the rule of Hamas and its military capabilities, return the hostages and ensure that there is no security threat from Gaza to Israel. It will also make sure that whoever is in charge of Gaza educates its citizens without hatred for Jews or anyone else in the world.
'Gazan youth and the entire society need to start the deradicalisation process so that they can enjoy a normal, peaceful life without being encouraged to be martyrs."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12934563/Israel-claims-cache-photos-reveals-children-appearing-trained-terror-secret-Hamas-camps.html

I have to say I think the occupation of the WB, Golan Heights and possibly now Gaza is all acquiring land. You might think it's all justified, but it's still acquisition.

There is no way Israel should or will demilitarise just as there is no way the UK or US would. That will never be part of any solution.
As for what is land acquisition it depends how far back you go in history and who has rights to what.

Israel is not acquiring land - it is defending its borders and its objective is to eradicate Hamas military capabilities
It’s never going to give up the land it’s occupying though is it?

As for what is land acquisition it depends how far back you go in history and who has rights to what.

It doesn’t really. The mandate that bought Israel into being states quite clearly which land belongs to Palestine.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/two-state-solution

@floodlightonwhatisright - this needs to be addressed in Israel too
Israel gives settler children firearms training – Middle East Monitor
Academic claims Israeli school textbooks contain bias | Israel | The Guardian
Clip of Israeli kids singing of 'wiping out' nation's enemies elicits outrage | The Times of Israel

Israel is acquiring land every time another settler enclave is set up, the illegally occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem and Syria’s Golan Heights, all taken by force, not by any civilised arrangement. It it had just defended its 1967 borders and stayed out of other peoples land we wouldn’t be facing the carnage that we have now. And this is all within the history of the mass cleansing during the Nabka in 1948 as well.

So why are Israeli settlers being allowed to build on the occupied territories in the West Bank? Why are innocent civilians being murdered in the WB if this is not about land? There is no Hamas in the WB?
And why does the Likud party members and other prominent Israelis such as the UK Israeli ambassador talk about Israel owning all the land between the river and the sea- and this was prior to October 7th?

If it was only about peace and not about land, I bet the Palestinians would make peace work if Israel agreed to return to the 1967 borders as per the Oslo Accords.

Peace out too 😎

I don’t really see what my username has to do with it ? They are still illegally occupying Palestinian land over and above the 1967 borders.

4 questions in one post.
You would be more likely to get a response for me if you didn't sound as if you were interrogating me.
As it is, I won't bother responding.

There are no good answers to those questions, I can see how you would be stuck with how to respond.

So are most countries in the world after winning unprovoked wars.

No my peace loving dude - they answer to them is all the same. Occam’s razor

So what is your suggestion then?

Israel needs to stop facing unprovoked attacks before any changes could be considered.

Just my suggestion.

That is not really a suggestion as much as a series of opinions and unstated premises, though. I do not necessarily agree with all of them - but I shall let them stand for themselves.

How do you suggest this be made to happen, though?

So are most countries in the world after winning unprovoked wars
I think you’re forgetting it was actually Israel that started the war in 1967.
Look I’m not being funny but can you not see that this attitude of “it was us that won the war so we get what we want” just encourages more war? Why would your opponent back down if thems the rules?
Might be time to give diplomacy another try.