Towards a sustainable peace

[mids2019]

I think for a peace to be obtained constructive dialogue has to be started but in order for this to happen in my opinion Palestine has to acknowledge and their leaders publically denounce the heinous acts of October 7th and make clear such an event will never be repeated.

There have been to many senior Palestinian politicians wishing their grievances to be heard without mentioning October 7th and this will only have the effect of enraging Israel.

We need Palestinian leadership that is willing to sit down with Israeli leaders and from the outset denounce violence specifically making it absolutely clear there will be no 'revenge' for the current Israeli incursion.

We also need to be pragmatic and understand Israel will not be giving Gaza any financial aid so it will be up to the richer gulf states primarily to discuss funding some sort of rebuilding within Gaza. Also eventually there needs to be opportunities for Palestinians to emigrate in order to gain jobs and allow future generations to thrive. I think ultimately you would have to view Gaza as a city state with a multi million rebuilding package coming from those supportive nations in the middle east.

We also need to ensure education in Gaza is such that anti semitiism isn't promoted from a young age so we have a chance for a generation of Palestinians growing up knowing the only way forward is peace.

I think there is a peace to be had if both sides want it and are willing to negotiate positivist with a commitment to prevent terrorism and ensure there is security for both parties.

My intention isn't to fully compare the two in every aspect. The point centred around restrictions on sovereignty being imposed by external sovereign powers.

Nothing else.

Like Germany and Japan before them, any independent Palestinian State will NOT be fully sovereign. Egypt has indicated a demilitarised Palestinian State is on the cards.

You might scoff and make retorts such as "Let might make right", but reality is very different. Western, Israeli and most Arab States are not friendly towards Palestinian terrorist groups. It IS in their interests to demilitarise them for the greater good of the region.

Political, military and economic might is important. Palestinians have none of these whereas the West, Israel and Arab States such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt do.

Rather than might making things right, it's more accurate to state that might makes things possible and to happen.

As I've said many times before from my own experience, peaceful settlements do not arise until a terrorist group is defeated or very close to it.

A coalition of the willing will impose a settlement based on military, political and business control. We've seen it before involving whole countries and we'll see it with the tiny strips of Palestinian controlled areas.

Palestinians won't be able to fight against a Western, Israeli and Arab coalition. They have no meaningful power as Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman pointed out to Palestinian leaders.

The very fact you laughably said "Posters like the OP and yourself are saying “well Israel’s in charge and Gaza has to suck it up”" just demonstrates you've failed to read AND comprehend my actual words. Especially since I've repeatedly stressed the importance of a Western, Israeli and Arab coalition of the willing.

Let me point out also that the Arab coalition of the past with its Three Noes Of Khartoum has failed over time. With that in mind, Arab States are going to have to form a coalition with Israel. Iran won't be in it, but major Arab powers like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Qatar would likely be.

I understand terrorism very well having experienced it in real life too. Unfortunately, most commenting here haven't and don't really understand it. Defeat of Hamas is key here. That can be enough to discourage future terrorism and ensure the focus will be on politics.

The failure of Hamas must be made plain for all to see. Not a propaganda of the peace process type of thing.

Once again you're being highly selective in your responses, so cheerio to you. 🤷‍♂️

And this is to say nothing of how Palestinian leaders over decades have failed Palestinians! 🤦‍♂️

Reality is rejecting every possible peace settlement ever tabled eventually leads you and your people to a total dead end.

And you'll end up with less than before too.

Like Germany and Japan before them, any independent Palestinian State will NOT be fully sovereign. Egypt has indicated a demilitarised Palestinian State is on the cards.
Demilitarisation does make sense

A coalition of the willing will impose a settlement based on military, political and business control
Which the more extreme fractions of Palestinian society will try and resist with, you guessed it, more terrorism.

Palestinians won't be able to fight against a Western, Israeli and Arab coalition
Not in the sense that they can declare war and send in the army but then they can’t do that now.
It’s worth remembering Iran and Hezbollah will probably back any terrorist factions. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey etc probably want to remain neutral/avoid any wider conflict which isn’t quite the same as backing Israel the way America does.

The very fact you laughably said "Posters like the OP and yourself are saying “well Israel’s in charge and Gaza has to suck it up”" just demonstrates you've failed to read AND comprehend my actual words.
That is what you’re saying though

And this is to say nothing of how Palestinian leaders over decades have failed Palestinians! 🤦‍♂️

Reality is rejecting every possible peace settlement ever tabled eventually leads you and your people to a total dead end.

And you'll end up with less than before too.

Well there’s 2 sides to every story. An alternative POV is outlined here.

https://theintercept.com/2023/11/28/israel-palestine-history-peace/

Israel must be made to pay for rebuilding Gaza, they were the ones who flattened it to ground. Why would anyone else pay ?

But it was Netanyahu, who, on his own admission blocked to Oslo accords, not the Palestinians- a direct quote:
""They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]... I said I would, but [that] I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue." Netanyahu then explained how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from "specified military locations", and insisted he be allowed to specify which areas constituted a "military location"—such as the whole of the Jordan Valley. "Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords"
It's now clear: the Oslo peace accords were wrecked by Netanyahu's bad faith | Avi Shlaim | The Guardian

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23971375/israel-palestine-peace-talks-deal-timeline

A somewhat more nuanced account ⬆️

@DownNative

I agree with all the above.

Before any long term settlent can even be considered Hamas have to be destroyed. As far as possible the ideology that allowed the formation and power of Hamas has to be challenged.

When the war is over there must be a security force present that will be able to further investigate those that instigated October 7th and obviously free remaining hostages if not released.

Any Israeli military occupation would in reality be a necessary layer of security for Israel. I am sure IDF soldiers would want to return home but sadly there is another necessary.job to be done.

What simply can't happen is that immediately after the war Israel leaves and an unscrutinised Palestinian authority emerges from the semi wasteland, probably a Hamas mk 2, with a remit of bloody revenge on Israel in some manner. Currently realistically there will be many Palestinians that would support this . The problem would be then confounded if you then have international money flooding in an unaccountable manner for reconstruction which again can be used by the new hard-line vehemently anti Israel leadership to renew weapons and militant groups (supported by Iran of course). You then have the conditions for an eventual repeat of October 7th......

To have a constructive way forward you need a reset on Gaza with an international temporary security outfit made up of all invested players. Eventually over years the security apparatus may recede and the groundings of some sort of Palestinian sovereignty (or autonomy) can be discussed. One thing should be apparent. The Palestinian people would have a poor future if they did support a group like Hamas again and consider October the 7th 'legitimate Resistance'. Hamas are a proscribed terrorist group for a reason.

As far as possible the ideology that allowed the formation and power of Hamas has to be challenged.
How would you suggest this is done?

A somewhat more nuanced account ⬆️
Just to clarify I meant more nuanced that the first article I posted not the article gloriagloria
posted.

@theoldweirdalbion

With difficulty ...

I think you have to be realistic and understand currently there is a large pool of Palestinian recruits for such organisations given the magnitude of Israeli response.

I suppose you could ensure as far as possible leaders with such views do not get a voice. In the UK we have laws to prevent recruitment to terror organisations and to prevent hate speech so could such policies be implemented in Gaza.

I think for younger Gazans any UN schools should ensure that education does not include lessons that lead to anti semitism and give a positive vision for the future

What would do a long way for Palestinians I think, is some parity between how Israel and Palestine is treated.

I have no issue with a demilitarised Palestinian state, living alongside a demilitarised Israeli one, with the security for both being the responsibility for international peacekeepers. Then both sides allowed to gradually take security responsibility back over a period of decades.

Only when both sides are prevented from committing attrocities are people likely to start talking constructively about the future. Neither side can flourish when they all live in fear of eachother and the future.

It would never happen because Israel is too powerful for this, but a sustainable, fair peace isnt possible when one side is largely unarmed and the other has nukes ..

In the same mind, Israeli schools should also sort their education out as well. We also (the west) and Israel do not have the right to control over any future elections of Palestine.

But to your earlier post, there will be no peace whilst The IDF is still in Gaza, whilst Israel has control of their water, power and everything else.
People have to realise that because Israel won’t let the Palestinians have a legitimate armed forces, or an airport, or no coastal access there will always be Hamas, or it’s equivalent, what choice have they got to defend themselves ? Israel will not defeat Hamas, it’s an ideology born from oppression and lack of control over their own future.

You don’t know me at all.

I have no issue with a demilitarised Palestinian state, living alongside a demilitarised Israeli one, with the security for both being the responsibility for international peacekeepers. Then both sides allowed to gradually take security responsibility back over a period of decades.

This is a good idea and would definitely reduce the violence and death toll.

Any suggestion of a demilitarised Israel is a flight of fantasy and a non-starter. There is no way this will happen when other terrorist groups controlled as proxies by a hostile rogue State as Iran exists.

Western States and Arab States such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia will not seriously put forward such proposals.

It's a ridiculous suggestion that isn't worth further discussion.

History indicates Israel has required military power in order to defend itself from the invasion by five Arab States to more recent times.

No, it is any possible Palestinian State that will be permanently demilitarised. On a smaller scale at home here, it was PIRA who were demilitarised and not the British Army.

As I said, not worth further serious discussion. 🤦‍♂️

Yes, there has to be fairness and parity. Not one side completely dominating and bullying the other.

Thanks to those posters who have pointed out yet again that it is not Palestine that caused an end to peace talks. Rather the assassination of Rabin, the rise of Netanyahu and the increasingly violent settlers which put a stop to years of talks and potential compromise.

@DownNative I think that means the continued invasion of the WB, then. As well as evictions in East Jerusalem and regular bombing of Gaza. Which means continued war. The Palestinians are not going to die quietly.

On the contrary, there doesn't have to be fairness in any deal and we've modern examples of that too.

Oh, so decades of Palestinian terrorism within and outwith Israeli borders has nothing to do with it?

The Palestinian suicide bombers in the 1990s has nothing to do with it?

The fact Palestinian leaders including Hamas, Arafat and others rejected every possible peace settlement has nothing to do with it? Palestinians have been failed by their own leaders who feather their own nests, live in a way they can only dream of and who use ordinary Palestinian hardships for their own political agenda.

Rejecting various deals eventually leads you to a dead end, loss of friends and loss of any kind of power.

Clinton wasn't wrong in what he said to Arafat.

@DownNative the IRA decommissioned and the British army left. It wasn't just one side.

No, it doesn't. That poster very clearly stated Israel should be demilitarised. In other words, Israel to have zero military power which is a completely ridiculous suggestion!

Their words are very plain and there's no room for "interpretations" such as yours. 🤷‍♂️

Arafat agreed to terms with Rabin in 1993.
However Israel reneged on its promise to withdraw illegal settlements.
Then Rabin was assassinated in 1995.
And the settlers ramped up their violent illegal land stealing.
That is why the peace deal failed.

And no matter which way you look at it, slaughtering thousands of innocent children can never be justified.

Christ! I really, really despair at the lack of knowledge and education here! 🤦‍♂️

No, PIRA was made to decommission as it wasn't doing so willingly. Its no coincidence they did so in October 2001 after pressure by the USA, UK and ROI Governments given the global war on terror.

And the British Army has never left Northern Ireland. The army is still here in garrison numbers in the same way it is in Great Britain - and the same numbers as before the Troubles as well. The British Army still retains their bases in Palace Barracks, Holywood and Thiepval Barracks, Lisburn. Palace Barracks is also the biggest and most important Mi5 base in the UK outside of London.

I'll repeat here what I've said many times - the Provos didn't achieve any of their long held key core demands in the Belfast Agreement. The British Government, on the other hand, achieved the demands they've had since 1920.