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Conflict in the Middle East

Towards a sustainable peace

392 replies

mids2019 · 01/01/2024 16:20

I think for a peace to be obtained constructive dialogue has to be started but in order for this to happen in my opinion Palestine has to acknowledge and their leaders publically denounce the heinous acts of October 7th and make clear such an event will never be repeated.

There have been to many senior Palestinian politicians wishing their grievances to be heard without mentioning October 7th and this will only have the effect of enraging Israel.

We need Palestinian leadership that is willing to sit down with Israeli leaders and from the outset denounce violence specifically making it absolutely clear there will be no 'revenge' for the current Israeli incursion.

We also need to be pragmatic and understand Israel will not be giving Gaza any financial aid so it will be up to the richer gulf states primarily to discuss funding some sort of rebuilding within Gaza. Also eventually there needs to be opportunities for Palestinians to emigrate in order to gain jobs and allow future generations to thrive. I think ultimately you would have to view Gaza as a city state with a multi million rebuilding package coming from those supportive nations in the middle east.

We also need to ensure education in Gaza is such that anti semitiism isn't promoted from a young age so we have a chance for a generation of Palestinians growing up knowing the only way forward is peace.

I think there is a peace to be had if both sides want it and are willing to negotiate positivist with a commitment to prevent terrorism and ensure there is security for both parties.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Parkingt111 · 07/01/2024 23:01

It's not really a military solution but I echo the sentiments of this young lady and it's something that is definitely needed as atleast a starting point for long lasting peace. This organisation was recommended on the Israeli lefty thread and they do some amazing work to bring peace and unity so definitely worth having a look at.
And on that note, good night all

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1rs3g5t5kV/?igsh=NWl1NHFxM3g2ZjU0

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1rs3g5t5kV?igsh=NWl1NHFxM3g2ZjU0

Babyboomtastic · 07/01/2024 23:10

That's not sustainable at all.

It's more or the same oppression Gazans have had for decades. People expected to politely walk past the (heavily armed) people who killed their children, their parents etc, and who have the ability to detain them at will, or if they prefer to kill them. Gazans not even able to buy baby milk for their infants without Israel's approval.

If that is so sustainable, how come it didn't work previously?

floodlightonwhatisright · 07/01/2024 23:11

Livinginanotherworld · 07/01/2024 22:59

So do I, I fully stand by what I said. So stop with the underlying intimidation.
As @HeidiInTheBigCity so eloquently put it, the rascism towards Palestinians on this thread is disgusting.

I am sorry if you find my post "underlying intimidation."

Plus I really don't think that finding it a problem that a poster suggested in reference to 7/10 that "But the Israeli government did plenty, it’s on them" is racist.

Livinginanotherworld · 07/01/2024 23:16

For once, I have no fucking words 🙄

BelleHathor · 07/01/2024 23:21

Livinginanotherworld · 07/01/2024 23:16

For once, I have no fucking words 🙄

Don't bother, there a lot of people who fail to realise that the Status Quo has changed (many of them in the Israeli Government).

HeidiInTheBigCity · 07/01/2024 23:30

Israel would keep total security control of the Palestinian enclave while an as yet undefined, Israeli-guided Palestinian body would handle day-to-day administration and governance [Quote from the article in question - Gallant also actually said that; I saw his presser.]

... this exists, I believe? It is called "the West Bank" (even though, supposedly, the so-called "area A" is under Palestinian "security control"). Israel reserves the right to launch incursions into and impose military rule upon any of Jenin, Tulkarem, Nablus, Jericho, Ramallah, Bethlehem, Hebron ... to name but the major population centres if and when it pleases. Arrest and imprison people - sometimes via military courts (whereas Israeli settlers in the West Bank are subject to civil courts - even if they injure and kill Palestinian civilians!), but more often than not without any due process at all.

Go ask my dear friend why he has not been to see his dying father in three years, and you will learn that it is because he has been informed that he will be arrested if he does - he is not a militant, just opinionated!

Go ahead and ask any Palestinian in any of these places - or in the diaspora - if they feel they are particularly under "sustainable peace" in the West Bank! You will learn that they do not see "IDF decides to turn up and bulldoze our streets and shoot at our school kids" as any particularly "peaceful" situation! Nor do they find "settlers under IDF protection coming into towns and villages to terrorise locals" in any way "sustainably peaceful".

Go ahead and ask my former FIL how he feels about the trees he inherited from his father, who inherited them from his father (and so on) somehow now being inaccessible to him because they are, apparently, now in a "closed military area". My heart breaks so much for him! He is pushing 80, and these trees, this land were his identity. My own grandfather was a farmer, and ex-FIL reminded me of him in so many ways. They both lived off the land and they were the land, and the land was them. One is dead - and the other is alive and separated from everything he ever thought he was by military force!

If this is what "sustainable peace" looks like: no wonder Palestinians reject it!

Livinginanotherworld · 07/01/2024 23:46

HeidiInTheBigCity · 07/01/2024 23:30

Israel would keep total security control of the Palestinian enclave while an as yet undefined, Israeli-guided Palestinian body would handle day-to-day administration and governance [Quote from the article in question - Gallant also actually said that; I saw his presser.]

... this exists, I believe? It is called "the West Bank" (even though, supposedly, the so-called "area A" is under Palestinian "security control"). Israel reserves the right to launch incursions into and impose military rule upon any of Jenin, Tulkarem, Nablus, Jericho, Ramallah, Bethlehem, Hebron ... to name but the major population centres if and when it pleases. Arrest and imprison people - sometimes via military courts (whereas Israeli settlers in the West Bank are subject to civil courts - even if they injure and kill Palestinian civilians!), but more often than not without any due process at all.

Go ask my dear friend why he has not been to see his dying father in three years, and you will learn that it is because he has been informed that he will be arrested if he does - he is not a militant, just opinionated!

Go ahead and ask any Palestinian in any of these places - or in the diaspora - if they feel they are particularly under "sustainable peace" in the West Bank! You will learn that they do not see "IDF decides to turn up and bulldoze our streets and shoot at our school kids" as any particularly "peaceful" situation! Nor do they find "settlers under IDF protection coming into towns and villages to terrorise locals" in any way "sustainably peaceful".

Go ahead and ask my former FIL how he feels about the trees he inherited from his father, who inherited them from his father (and so on) somehow now being inaccessible to him because they are, apparently, now in a "closed military area". My heart breaks so much for him! He is pushing 80, and these trees, this land were his identity. My own grandfather was a farmer, and ex-FIL reminded me of him in so many ways. They both lived off the land and they were the land, and the land was them. One is dead - and the other is alive and separated from everything he ever thought he was by military force!

If this is what "sustainable peace" looks like: no wonder Palestinians reject it!

I’m so sorry for your friends and ex FIL, it’s just appalling 😢

DownNative · 08/01/2024 00:04

Savourycrepe · 07/01/2024 17:35

@DownNative You are giving a very one-sided view of what happened in Northern Ireland and are missing out two crucial factors.

First, the British government changed their view of the Catholic/Irish population from inferior to the Protestant population, to having equal rights. This meant that they stated that they no longer had a ‘selfish’ interest in NI, and would no longer treat Protestant wishes as more important than Catholic ones, and would treat both equally. And so would allow reunification of the majority of the people wanted it.

Second, and most importantly, from the late 70s onwards the British largely acted with restraint. They aimed to win ‘hearts and minds’. They did not react to IRA bombings by attacking IRA supporting areas or communities. They did not drop bombs on the Falls or Ardoyne, even if the majority supported the provos. Instead, they acted with restraint so the IRA looked like the bad guys.

Israel is doing none of this. It has no strategy for a long-term peace.

No, I've not missed any factors. And I'll remind folks again that I am from a Catholic family myself in Northern Ireland. 🤔

"First, the British government changed their view of the Catholic/Irish population from inferior to the Protestant population, to having equal rights."

No, the British Government held no such view and Northern Ireland was self-governing from 1921 to 1972.

"This meant that they stated that they no longer had a ‘selfish’ interest in NI..."

No, the actual phrase is "self strategic" and not "selfish". In other words, Northern Ireland wasn't militarily required by the Government.

"The Prime Minister, on behalf of the British Government, reaffirms that they will uphold the democratic wish of the greater number of the people of Northern Ireland on the issue of whether they prefer to support the Union or a sovereign united Ireland. On this basis, he reiterates, on the behalf of the British Government, that they have no selfish strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland."

Yet the above has always been UK Government’s position since 1920:

"I come now to the more vexed question of Ulster. Here we had all given a definitely clear pledge that, under no conditions, would we agree to any proposals that would involve the coercion of Ulster.....Therefore, on policy I have always been in favour of the pledge that there should be no coercion of Ulster.

We have never for a moment forgotten the pledge—not for an instant. That did not preclude us from endeavouring to persuade Ulster to come into an All-Ireland Parliament."

- David Lloyd George, the then Prime Minister, in the House of Commons on 14 December 1921.

Irish Republicanism, on the other hand, completely abandoned the words of Michael Collins:

"There can be no question of forcing Ulster into union with the Twenty-six counties. I am absolutely against coercion of this kind. If Ulster is going to join us it must be voluntary. Union is our final goal, that is all."

It took Irish Republicanism until 1998 to accept they cannot coerce Northern Ireland.

But the British Government has always been in favour of coaxing Northern Ireland into a united Ireland. And, quite correctly, had always strongly opposed attempts to force it into one.

Indeed, the possibility of a vote to join a united Ireland had been in UK legislation long before 1993.

So, the 1993 Downing Street Declaration you referred to didn't represent a change of view on the part of the British Government itself.

"....would no longer treat Protestant wishes as more important than Catholic ones, and would treat both equally."

Again, this didn't occur by the British Government since Northern Ireland was self-governing.

"And so would allow reunification of the majority of the people wanted it."

This has always been UK Government policy, hence the statements about how there can be no coercion of Ulster in the '20s onwards. This is the principle of consent which was always a recurrent feature of UK Government thinking - Whitelaw's 1972 paper is another example of it. Republicanism, on the other hand, sneered that it was the "Loyalist veto" until they accepted the principle of consent which hadn't actually changed. 🤦‍♂️

"Second, and most importantly, from the late 70s onwards the British largely acted with restraint. They aimed to win ‘hearts and minds’. They did not react to IRA bombings by attacking IRA supporting areas or communities. They did not drop bombs on the Falls or Ardoyne, even if the majority supported the provos. Instead, they acted with restraint so the IRA looked like the bad guys."

PIRA didn't have anywhere close to the military capabilities of Hamas, so it was never going to be the case where the British Government was going to bomb single streets or use full military capabilities.

Indeed, PIRA only managed to murder 0.5% of the total British Army deployment. Road traffic accidents claimed another 0.5% of British Army personnel - this was actually marginally higher than PIRA murders.

You're correct the Army acted with restraint (more likely to be arrested than killed) but the shift in tactics from 1974 onwards wasn't really based on "hearts and minds". It was based on undermining PIRA and UVF from within - hence Operation Eagle targeted Republicans and Operation Torniquet targeted Loyalists.

The hearts and minds wasn't necessary as Republican and Loyalist terrorists didn't have majority support across Northern Ireland as a whole. Far from it.

So, the use of Special Forces against terrorist groups is one method - this is how the UK did it. Exactly why the 14 Intelligence Company was formed by SAS members and why RUC Special Branch formed E4HSU. Both were very effective. 14 Int Coy is now SRR so that intelligence methods learned during the Troubles wasn't lost. SRR does operate throughout the UK to this day.

Israel, on the other hand, is facing a very different kind of terrorist threat. Hamas makes PIRA look like a nursery group! Consider how PIRA murdered 1,800 in total over nearly four decades yet Hamas murdered 1,200 on just the 7th October 2023!

Hamas is backed by a rogue State (Iran) whereas PIRA was an enemy of the Republic of Ireland Government as well as the UK Government.

Hamas are embedded into the social fabric of Gaza in a way PIRA and UVF were not in Northern Ireland. Indeed, PIRA would have loved to have been that deeply embedded.

That's without talking about Hamas' weapons arsenal and military strategy. Again, they blow PIRA right out of the water!

My point is what worked against PIRA in Northern Ireland won't really work against Hamas in Gaza.

I don't think any State would have much of a coherent long term strategy for dealing with a terrorist group like Hamas.

Much less one for long term peace.

Indeed, it took the British Security Forces a while to develop an effective strategy against PIRA - about 4-5 years. There is ZERO reason to think it wouldn't take Israel a while to develop an effective strategy against Hamas too.

If peace is to occur, Hamas will have to either be comprehensively destroyed with any umbilical cord to Iran cut or they'll have to be brought so close to defeat they cannot operate effectively which demoralises the ranks.

A long lasting peace settlement will be far more complicated than the Belfast Agreement actually is. For 35 pages, it's not all that detailed and much was actually left out of it kicked into the long grass.

An equivalent for the Middle East will run for considerably more than a mere 35 pages. It will have the involvement of neighbouring Arab States, especially Egypt and Saudi Arabia in addition to the West and Israel. Land For Peace has been done in the past by Israel. Water For Peace will be the future.

And this is what Europe did post-1945 - coal and steel for peace.

Polka83 · 08/01/2024 00:56

BelleHathor · 07/01/2024 22:10

A lot of people are basing their analysis of how things were and not on how they actually are.

Yes Israel won the wars in 48, 67, 73 and arguably 1982 in Lebanon. However Hezbollah beat Israel in the 2nd Lebanon war in 2006, using only 3000 soldiers versus the IDFs 30,000 and causing the IDF to withdraw after 34 days.

Yes, the IDF has "superior" weapons, however a lot of the army fighting right now are reservists.

Hezbollah is armed by Iran who have modern arms including anti aircraft, anti tank and long range weapons. Plus they've not been subject to a blockade and have had access to the weapons on the black market. They also have recent combat experience from fighting in Syria and other countries. Remember Hamas only fired 3000 rockets on the 7th October and were able to cause the Iron Dome to have problems. If Hezbollah target these Iron Dome batteries and take them out, Israel would be left defenceless. 100'000 settlers have been moved/evacuated from the border of Lebanon.

Re: The Arab countries would fight with America. That's increasingly looking unlikely. There are 400 million Arabs who have watched their Palestinian brothers and sisters being killed, whilst the world stood by. Even if their leaders wanted to support the USA, they wouldn't be leaders for much longer. There was a Turkish news reader fired last week just for having a Starbucks cup on the news desk. The region is hot right now.

That's why Josep Borell met with Hezbollah leadership recently.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/borrell-meets-hezbollah-official-in-bid-to-avoid-wider-war/

Leaks from a U.S. confidential report initially to the Washington Post suggests concerns that Israel would not cope with fighting a second front:

According to the WP, in private conversations, the White House warned Israel against escalation in Lebanon as U.S. officials fear the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) may struggle to succeed due to "its military assets and resources would be spread too thin given the conflict in Gaza," the report cited two people familiar with a new secret assessment from the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)

And:

Biden's administration appears alarmed that Hezbollah could strike deeper into Israeli territory than before, "hitting sensitive targets like petrochemical plants and nuclear reactors, and Iran may activate militias across the region."

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1704621759-u-s-concerned-over-israel-s-chances-if-hezbollah-joins-war-full-scale-report

U.S. concerned over Israel's chances if Hezbollah joins war full-scale - report - I24NEWS

U.S. President Biden's administration is said to have instructed top aides to the Middle East to prevent a full-blown war between Israel and Lebanon's Hezbollah - Click the link for more.

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1704621759-u-s-concerned-over-israel-s-chances-if-hezbollah-joins-war-full-scale-report

mids2019 · 08/01/2024 06:54

I think there is work to do before getting towards a two state solution but for security then in absolutely no way can October 7th be termed 'resistance' or a legitimate action to provocation. It was not a quasi military response it was the worst mass terrorism the world has possibly seen.

From Israel's perspective the simple fact is they cannot bear a repeat of that day and will do everything in its power to prevent it. The US responded in a similar fashion of 9/11. There weren't going to be an terrorist training based left in Afghansitan and they were prepared to occupy the country to ensure it.

I hope the eradication of Hamas can act as a starting block to look afresh at this conflict and focus the international communities minds in how to produce negotiatiins. It may be the US does over time pressurise Israel to come to new relationships with Palestinians in time as it is everyone's interests for a sustainable peace to occur. We already see the US has stated a position where Palestinaiins remain in Gaza.

The real challenge for peace is for previous grievance to be set aside from both parties and for a peace to begin from where we are. This may take a long rime. If you look at the broad sweep of history there are relatively few countries which have not been in some form of conflict with each other so we have been here before as a globak society many times.

OP posts:
Thereissomelight · 08/01/2024 07:41

The terrorism of Oct 7, appalling as it was, has been since eclipsed by the terrorism taking place in Gaza.

Thereissomelight · 08/01/2024 07:45

Certainly a lot of amnesia will be required on both sides. 8000 Gazan families will have to overlook the killing of their children for a start.

If that can be done, it will also help if any future Israeli leader (not Netanyahu clearly) who comes to a sustainable agreement with Palestine does not get assassinated by other Israelis so that the peace agreement can be ignored.

Babyboomtastic · 08/01/2024 07:54

Thereissomelight · 08/01/2024 07:41

The terrorism of Oct 7, appalling as it was, has been since eclipsed by the terrorism taking place in Gaza.

This.

But also, as horrific as it was, it's incorrect to call it the worst act of terrorism ever. It's certainly 'up there' but not the worst, thankfully.

9/11 had a bigger death toll
Camp Speicher massacre had a bigger death toll

And Israel has repeated the death and destruction of that day over 19 times over since. It had the worlds sympathy after that happened, but has quickly acted to regain its position of aggressor.

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 08:33

Thereissomelight · 08/01/2024 07:41

The terrorism of Oct 7, appalling as it was, has been since eclipsed by the terrorism taking place in Gaza.

Not in my mind it hasn't, and that has nothing to do with the relative value of lives, and everything to do with the intentionally sadistic and horrific manner of deaths.

Thereissomelight · 08/01/2024 08:34

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 08:33

Not in my mind it hasn't, and that has nothing to do with the relative value of lives, and everything to do with the intentionally sadistic and horrific manner of deaths.

In my mind, killing 8000 children and horrifically maiming and orphaning many more is sadistic and horrific. So our minds will have to agree to disagree.

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 08:37

Thereissomelight · 08/01/2024 08:34

In my mind, killing 8000 children and horrifically maiming and orphaning many more is sadistic and horrific. So our minds will have to agree to disagree.

Yes, please let's do that. I don't want to keep derailing what was otherwise an interesting discussion, but I can't sit on my hands when you make grand pronouncements as though they are indisputable.

Babyboomtastic · 08/01/2024 08:41

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 08:33

Not in my mind it hasn't, and that has nothing to do with the relative value of lives, and everything to do with the intentionally sadistic and horrific manner of deaths.

I think it's easy to sanitise deaths when all someone does is press a button to release a bomb. When someone dies that knowing the bomb will hit civilians, its no less horrific. It just means you don't have to watch them as they die.

Lucky are those that die immediately in a bomb. Many don't. As I type this, there are young children, toddlers even, currently trapped in rubble, with agonising wounds that they will slowly die from if they dont suffocate first. Alone. This isn't something that happened in one awful occasion 3 months ago, it's something that's happening 24 hours a day for those 3 months now. It's the most horrifying death I can think of, if I'm honest.

Israel knows it's bombs do this. They have prevented rescue machinery being able to operate and then bombed the hospitals where these children would be taken. Sadistic seems like an understatement.

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 08:43

I'm not going to get drawn into these circular arguments about the ethics of war. Let's not derail an otherwise interesting thread.

EmberLight · 08/01/2024 09:00

I've heard a few posters argue that Oct 7th is worse because of how the deaths happened.

Trust me. Having an apartment block fall on you is not a nice way to go. Either is getting maimed by shrapnel. Or having bits of your body blown off. Or being taken out of your incubator and being abandoned to suffocate without oxygen. Or dying injured and trapped under rubble because no one can get you out.

Israel have killed more than 20 times the number of people who were killed in the Hamas attack. Thousands and thousands of children. And I don't know how many people they've rounded up and detained but it's a lot.

Babyboomtastic · 08/01/2024 09:06

EmberLight · 08/01/2024 09:00

I've heard a few posters argue that Oct 7th is worse because of how the deaths happened.

Trust me. Having an apartment block fall on you is not a nice way to go. Either is getting maimed by shrapnel. Or having bits of your body blown off. Or being taken out of your incubator and being abandoned to suffocate without oxygen. Or dying injured and trapped under rubble because no one can get you out.

Israel have killed more than 20 times the number of people who were killed in the Hamas attack. Thousands and thousands of children. And I don't know how many people they've rounded up and detained but it's a lot.

Absolutely. If there was a livestream of a toddler dying alone under rubble for days, then there'd be a lot more horrified people. But because we can't see it, it enables people to blank the horror from their minds.

BelleHathor · 08/01/2024 09:19

Polka83 · 08/01/2024 00:56

Leaks from a U.S. confidential report initially to the Washington Post suggests concerns that Israel would not cope with fighting a second front:

According to the WP, in private conversations, the White House warned Israel against escalation in Lebanon as U.S. officials fear the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) may struggle to succeed due to "its military assets and resources would be spread too thin given the conflict in Gaza," the report cited two people familiar with a new secret assessment from the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)

And:

Biden's administration appears alarmed that Hezbollah could strike deeper into Israeli territory than before, "hitting sensitive targets like petrochemical plants and nuclear reactors, and Iran may activate militias across the region."

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1704621759-u-s-concerned-over-israel-s-chances-if-hezbollah-joins-war-full-scale-report

Thanks, seems like Bibi has a leak in his cabinet.

The analysis tallies with what former Generals, marines, cia analysts, diplomats and think tanks have been saying for weeks.

Escalating with Hezbollah is delusion, but it appears that there is someone in the cabinet who wants that in the hopes of drawing America to join.

"The last thing President Biden wants during re-election season is a war between Israel and Hezbollah that could drag the US into the conflict and lead to a direct confrontation with Iran.
Not only will this be terrible strategically, but politically, too. Biden’s progressive constituency is already applying intense pressure on his administration to end the war in Gaza."
https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/11/closer-israel-gets-destroying-hamas-more-likely-war-hezbollah-becomes

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 09:41

Babyboomtastic · 08/01/2024 09:06

Absolutely. If there was a livestream of a toddler dying alone under rubble for days, then there'd be a lot more horrified people. But because we can't see it, it enables people to blank the horror from their minds.

Let's not get drawn into speculation about why I feel the way I do.

Babyboomtastic · 08/01/2024 09:52

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 09:41

Let's not get drawn into speculation about why I feel the way I do.

So when it's the horrors of one side, you like to talk about it, when is the other side it's all 'this is derailing ' and 'let's move on'.

I can see why you might not want to get drawn into speculation why, but it's not particularly complimentary is it?

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 10:01

Babyboomtastic · 08/01/2024 09:52

So when it's the horrors of one side, you like to talk about it, when is the other side it's all 'this is derailing ' and 'let's move on'.

I can see why you might not want to get drawn into speculation why, but it's not particularly complimentary is it?

What are you on about? I wrote one sentence to challenge ThereIs's very black-and-white declaration and have not taken the bait when you all piled on me since. And I'm not taking it now. Because I've learned that this is never a discussion, so there is no point discussing it.

Anyway, can we stop derailing the thread please?