Towards a sustainable peace

[mids2019]

I think for a peace to be obtained constructive dialogue has to be started but in order for this to happen in my opinion Palestine has to acknowledge and their leaders publically denounce the heinous acts of October 7th and make clear such an event will never be repeated.

There have been to many senior Palestinian politicians wishing their grievances to be heard without mentioning October 7th and this will only have the effect of enraging Israel.

We need Palestinian leadership that is willing to sit down with Israeli leaders and from the outset denounce violence specifically making it absolutely clear there will be no 'revenge' for the current Israeli incursion.

We also need to be pragmatic and understand Israel will not be giving Gaza any financial aid so it will be up to the richer gulf states primarily to discuss funding some sort of rebuilding within Gaza. Also eventually there needs to be opportunities for Palestinians to emigrate in order to gain jobs and allow future generations to thrive. I think ultimately you would have to view Gaza as a city state with a multi million rebuilding package coming from those supportive nations in the middle east.

We also need to ensure education in Gaza is such that anti semitiism isn't promoted from a young age so we have a chance for a generation of Palestinians growing up knowing the only way forward is peace.

I think there is a peace to be had if both sides want it and are willing to negotiate positivist with a commitment to prevent terrorism and ensure there is security for both parties.

Hmmmm.. what would you class as unprovoked ?

It is a slaughter. The IDF is slaughtering thousands of innocent children. No one else is killing them except for the IDF.

Totally agree.

The current elected, official Israeli government is shocking in its racism, extremism and violence.

What did the victims of thr massacre do to provoke an attack exactly?

Just like the innocent men women and children of Gaza slaughtered in their thousands, they did nothing !

NB. I know the word slaughter is making some of you uncomfortable, that’s because it is uncomfortable. It is what it is, be uncomfortable and ensure that it never happens again, If it’s ever not uncomfortable, then we are not human.

But you can’t say the Gazan people have been living in Utopia for the last 75 years could you ! They have been imprisoned into a small strip of land, with no air or sea rights, not allowed to have their own legitimate defence forces, their brand new airport bombed to smithereens and not allowed the materials to repair or rebuild it. No control over access to anything, power, water, basic materials, food rationed, all unless Israel allows it, so yes under a complete occupation. That’s on the Israeli government and a large majority of Israeli people voted to put them and other right wing parties there and gave them control.

That doesn't really answer my question.

I answered your question in the first sentence.

Just like the innocent men women and children of Gaza slaughtered in their thousands, they did nothing !

I don't see how that explains what the victims of the October 7th massacre did to provoke it.

A lot of predictions on this thread are based on the inevitably of Israel winning the war. Which would allow them to dictate the terms of settlement.

What about if Israel fails to achieve it's objectives? The casualty rate of the IDF (and foreign mercenaries) is extremely high and the ground offensive is not going well as evidenced by the numerous videos of tanks being blown up.

Yesterday Hezbollah "damaged" an extremely strategic base by firing just 40 rockets. They've said this is only the beginning of the response to the assassination carried last week. Hezbollah has over 100'000 rockets and is ready for war, military they're Hamas times 100.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-admits-mount-meron-air-traffic-control-base-damaged-in-hezbollah-attack/

I made it crystal clear, the innocent civilians of Oct 7 did nothing to provoke it, just as the innocent victims in Gaza did nothing to provoke their massacre either.
But the Israeli government did plenty, it’s on them.

That’s a good point, we don’t know where this will end.

Just to clarify: You're saying that the actions of the Israeli government were "plenty" enough to justify what happened on 7 October? Or have I misunderstood?

@BelleHathor I thought IDF had a plethora of superior weapons, far greater numbers and western allies willing to jump in if they look like they are struggling. I can't see how they can lose. Plus I thought no countries in the ME want to fight with the US.

I was saying this in response to the poster who said Israel was suffering from unprovoked attacks, which is ridiculous considering the conditions Israeli Government place Gaza and the illegal occupied territories under.
Read my words and follow the thread rather than dipping in with your own made up interpretation.

Right. Because when you said Hmmmm.. what would you class as unprovoked ? it kind of implies that you think that the attacks were provoked.

I was following the thread, and that's not what PP said at all. Never mind, you've made yourself clear.

This is simply your wishful thinking.

Honestly, the levels of anti-Palestinian racism by some posters here are just mind boggling!

Only if you, literally, think Palestinians are "less" could you ever truly believe ...

... that any level of killing and maiming Israel does is "justified" in "response" to any (without exception always smaller) Israeli deaths or injuries

... that "there was a ceasefire on 6 October" (there was not for Palestinians! This year saw an unusually high death toll before 7 October)

... that Palestinians should just somehow "suck it up" and accept that "peace" means "you get to live under occupation, continue to be disenfranchised, have zero freedom of movement, and be subject to random incursions, harrassment, and imprisonment - often without due process - and that is then somehow meant to be "peace". Except, of course, if you are Palestinian (but that clearly does not matter as much ...)

... that Palestinians oppose the occupation because they just "hate Jews". Palestinians did not do the holocaust. Europeans did! Palestinians, generally speaking, do not particularly like being displaced, harrassed, driven out of their homes, arbitrarily imprisoned or subject to military rule. They tend to think this really sucks - understandably so! That is why they hate the occupation! They would hate it as much if it were the French doing it!

Look, Palestinians, for the most part, are just pretty ordinary people. Some are great. Some suck. They are neither the randomly violent barbarians that some posts on here seem to imply they are nor are they the purest of pure "perfect victims" that others seem to expect them to be in order for them to "deserve" compassion and, gasp!, equal rights!

Some of my best friends are Palestinian. I obviously love them (or they would not be friends) - but they are not "above reproach" in every aspect of their lives. Neither am I. Neither are you. Neither is the overwhelming majority of, say, Belgians.

... and yet, nobody would ever dismiss the mass slaughter of Belgians on the grounds that not all Belgians are perfectly perfect!

This is what racism looks like!

Sorry, not sorry!

A lot of people are basing their analysis of how things were and not on how they actually are.

Yes Israel won the wars in 48, 67, 73 and arguably 1982 in Lebanon. However Hezbollah beat Israel in the 2nd Lebanon war in 2006, using only 3000 soldiers versus the IDFs 30,000 and causing the IDF to withdraw after 34 days.

Yes, the IDF has "superior" weapons, however a lot of the army fighting right now are reservists.

Hezbollah is armed by Iran who have modern arms including anti aircraft, anti tank and long range weapons. Plus they've not been subject to a blockade and have had access to the weapons on the black market. They also have recent combat experience from fighting in Syria and other countries. Remember Hamas only fired 3000 rockets on the 7th October and were able to cause the Iron Dome to have problems. If Hezbollah target these Iron Dome batteries and take them out, Israel would be left defenceless. 100'000 settlers have been moved/evacuated from the border of Lebanon.

Re: The Arab countries would fight with America. That's increasingly looking unlikely. There are 400 million Arabs who have watched their Palestinian brothers and sisters being killed, whilst the world stood by. Even if their leaders wanted to support the USA, they wouldn't be leaders for much longer. There was a Turkish news reader fired last week just for having a Starbucks cup on the news desk. The region is hot right now.

That's why Josep Borell met with Hezbollah leadership recently.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/borrell-meets-hezbollah-official-in-bid-to-avoid-wider-war/

What about if Israel fails to achieve it's objectives
I expect it will gain control of Gaza, question is will it manage to completely flush out Hamas.

Absolutely agree. This thread is almost unreadable in its racism and dehumanisation of Palestinians. Shocking what people casually expect them to endure.

1000 times this. 👏👏👏

@HeidiInTheBigCity
Hear hear

I really hope this post is not deleted and it remains for all visitors to this thread to read.

So do I, I fully stand by what I said. So stop with the underlying intimidation.
As @HeidiInTheBigCity so eloquently put it, the rascism towards Palestinians on this thread is disgusting.