Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

I have also realised how necessary the Jewish state is. The world will never protect Jews so they must protect themselves. People would call for a one-state solution with Jews as a minority, meaning they could never protect themselves again. I see why Israel has to have such an uncompromising mentality - in the old persecutions in Europe and the ME, Jews had no way to protect themselves. They had to flee or die. Now Israel has an army and they have to use it. No one else will help them.

I have also seen a pp say that diaspora Jews should not have the right to Israeli citizenship as she can’t see that Jews are in danger elsewhere. This is mind-boggling to me given the last 100 years of history and again I understand why the Israelis think, ‘we cannot rely on anyone else, we have to make our own decisions to protect our people’.

As I’ve said - there are 60 Muslim and Arab countries in the world.

You do know being Arab and/or Muslim doesn't make you simply feel at home in any majority Arab/Muslim country? My parents wouldn't comfortably call Jordan home because it borders their homeland, and neither would I. It isn't a reason to excuse displacing people.

To answer the thread title, no, I have always been pro-Palestine and always will be. If there is one positive thing to note at the moment, it's that I see and hear so, so many more people realising just how badly the Israeli government/IDF treat Palestinians, and much more protest and global outrage against Israel's actions.

Yes indeed!

Yes. I find it hard to believe that the posters claiming they used to be pro-Palestine but are now pro-Israel are being sincere.

There's no way you could be pro-Palestine and then see the suffering they've been going through for the past 2 months and all of a sudden empathise less with them.

At the end of the day it’s simply inhumane to kill, injure and starve children - any innocent civilian of course but with the children it’s truly the death of innocence itself. Whether that is the holocaust, the Hamas massacre or the current conflict in Gaza. There should be no justification for it.

Absolutely this. I'm just really surprised how many of my left wing "friends" on Facebook seem to blindingly support " free Palestine" and posting random "ceasefire now" posts. Why are people not calling on Hamas for a ceasefire? They are the instigators, they are the ones holding the hostages.....if they laid down their weapons there would be peace. Israel is just defending itself from the absolutely horrific attacks of October 7th. If they put down their weapons the attacks from Hamas will not stop and Israel will not be safe.

Absolutely. Should be always wrong. There is no justification for indiscriminate warfare.

What about more sophisticated criticism? From the UN? Leading human rights organisations like Amnesty and human rights watch and human rights organisations within Israel? Save the children, Trocaire, Doctors Without Borders, the Red Cross, reporters without borders? What off the more recent criticism from EU countries, even the US now ?

it’s a genuine question . I’m not trying to annoy you; my point of view isn’t coming from twitter.

Oh ffs.

It's true thought.. why aren't they?

They are. People are calling on Hamas and the Israeli government to agree to a ceasefire.

Many of the actions Israel is taking don’t rely on Hamas behaviour. Have you missed the news today that idf shot and killed 3 hostages despite they had white flags and international law says you shouldn’t shot at them?

have you missed the part where idf has bulldozed people that were in a hospital car park and buried them alive ?

and have you missed the bit where they’ve raided and killed several in a Cristian church?

hamas are terrorists. Idf is behaving like terrorists. And innocent citizens shouldn’t have to put with either

Many Jewish people in the West are thriving. One of the very admirable things about orthodox Jews is their ability to mobilise and set up communities, that are often exclusively Jewish. Look at the towns of Kiryas Joel in NY and the Quebecan one (sorry can't remember it's name). That's not to say they, like any other minority group won't face discrimination at times. But it certainly doesn't mean they are all going to die unless Israel exists. Many Jews have never even been to Israel. I remember one settler who arrived from Australia saying "if we don't have Israel we'll be in the gas chambers".

Actually the number of people in both Gaza and Israel who wanted a two state solution was roughly the same in 2022. Around 30% on both sides. It was a sizeable minority to build on I suppose - a glimmer of hope. I can only imagine these numbers have decreased in the wake of the Hamas attacks and the subsequent conflict.

You've contradicted yourself just in the first paragraph.. I'm pretty sure hamas actions are the reason there are even hostages there in the first place. The reason they are in gaza right now 🤦‍♀️

Mumsnet hasn't really had any effect on my thinking. But following the news cycle, the rhetoric, noticing the patterns of disinfo and the fight for a narrative that was laid down early and vehemently has been rather enlightening. I've certainly changed my views on Israel.

And even then Israel shouldn’t be shooting at anyone that has got a white flag and doesn’t have a weapon on. Also, this time it’s been hostages , other times it’s been Palestinians who they’ve attacked , was it Hamas fault as well that Palestinians were in Palestine ?
Again Hamas is doing no good. Idf isn’t doing any good either.

Always been pro Palestine. This time the difference is social media which is showing the world what is happening and has been happening for years. The IDF shooting the hostages shows there is no respect for international law and they simply shoot anything that moves. They are doing themselves no favours with their current actions.

Not a reason for the IDF to flaunt international law as they do time and time again.

To address your question first, “ why can’t they have one country to be safe in?” The trouble is that they have not stayed within the borders they were given, they have grabbed more and more land turfing people out of their homes. If they had stayed within the 1967 borders maybe they would have good neighbours and peace, but they didnt. This isn’t now about defending themselves fro Oct 7, this is a complete land grab and occupation. It’s looking like the West Bank is next on the list.

To answer the op, my views have not changed in that I have always been pro-palestian, however, even I, never imagined that Israel could unleash the brutality upon Gaza that they have. I am beyond horrified now of what Netanyahu and the IDF are capable of. They have gone completely rogue and I foresee this growing into a much larger conflict in the Middle East and even the start of a world war. We are standing on the abyss.

Nothing on MN has changed my stance but it has been rather disturbing to see how many one-sided posters are so blind to anything that doesn’t bolster their arguments. From both sides, but particularly the stubborn refusal of many of the frequent pro-Israeli posters to recognise that the IDF have committed some horrific atrocities as well.

I would personally label myself pro-innocent civilians or pro-humanity. I 100% support the need for a safe Jewish homeland AND for a land where the Palestinians can live safely and prosperously without restrictions.

I don’t think either of these things can happen with the current Israeli government or with Hamas. Both need to go. Although I don’t agree that the mass bombing of Gaza is going to achieve the elimination of Hamas; it’s just resulting in a huge number of civilian deaths, injuries and an appalling humanitarian disaster. The deaths of over 7,000 children and babies is unjustifiable. The blame for all of these deaths lies with both Hamas and the IDF. Both have innocent blood on their hands.

I’m a pacifist and have never believed that war leads to peace. Israel is not making itself safer by the actions it is taking, it is just perpetuating a cycle of death that tragically will most likely just continue into the next generation.

As the great Martin Luther King himself said, “If we are to have peace on Earth, our loyalties must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation.

Your last two sentences completely resonate with me and make me think of another famous quote from Albert Einstein, which I’m fearful may become a prophecy.

“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones".

And the Israeli government have publicly made it very clear that they will never consider a two state solution either.
I can understand why Jewish people have a problem with “from the river to the sea” but what do you call it when a Jewish person posts the same thing on Facebook, with a picture of the Jewish flag encompassing all that land ?? Please someone tell me why that is ok as I reported that post and fb didn’t consider it worth removing. It’s all very one sided isn’t it ?

Anti semetism is rearing its ugly head, but Islamophobia is doing exactly the same. Is that ok ?