Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

@LeaveBritneyAlone I don't personally live in Gaza at the moment. I have and had friends and colleagues there. Brave and kind people. Some who went there to perform life-saving surgeries, to help relief agencies, to visit family there. It's chance that I'm not there. I fear for my child here in the West, from the people supporting the genocide.

To many people, the blood of innocent people in Gaza is abstract, or just worth less than the blood of Israelis. But not to me. Not to my colleagues who happened to be out in Gaza at the time. Not to my friends trapped there.

I happen to think that indiscriminate bombing, shooting unarmed civilians, murder, flattening hospitals, etc should be considered wrong whoever is doing it. It's a sad state of affairs where that's not a more widely held view.

No. Pro Hamas. And there’s plenty of them

Let me guess. Criticising Israel, putting some of the blame on Israel’s corrupt government and refusing to sweep the high death toll in Gaza under the carpet makes you pro Hamas.

Also Jews, Arabs and other minorities already live & work peacefully together in Israel, with equal rights. Israeli Arabs hold elected office & were also victims of Hamas on October 7th. One Arab Israeli family risked their lives saving Israeli Jews from Hamas. Thousands of Palestinians used to enter Israel every day to work, my cousin employed 3 Palestinians prior to October 7th but they can’t enter and do their jobs or collect their salaries thanks to Hamas. We can live in peace, we have shown we can do it. We just need the terrorists to F off, for UNRWRA to stop indoctrinating Palestinian kids, and for useful idiots in the west to stop feeding them the unachievable pipe dream they can wipe out Israel and all the Jews one day.

Many Palestinians don’t value their own lives

Eh?

@Scirocco So sorry for what you and friends are going through. The situation in Gaza, and the West Bank is like a nightmare replayed every day. It gets worse and worse. Someone just posted on another thread that a Christian church has been attacked and a sniper killed 2 women in the church. The others are trapped.

Thank you @stormy4319trevor .

@Scirocco thank you for your post. It is very disheartening to see how Palestinians are generally labelled by some as feral war mongers who somehow need to be tamed.
There are so many lovely, kind and also highly educated people living there who are disadvantaged simply for being born where they are.

I do resonate with you in the fear for my children too. It's not something I feel i can talk openly about on here but I do sometimes with family and friends who have similar concerns. Really hope and pray things improve soon.

It's really not true though. Funding settlers and defending settlers is not 'living in peace'. It may be for Israelis but it certainly isn't for Palestinians. Being under blockade is not living in peace again it may be for Israelis but it isn't for Palestinians. Having to go through checkpoints every day where Israeli soldiers humilate people and leave them waiting for hours on a whim is not living in peace, it may be for Israelis but it isn't for Palestinians. I could go on and on but the point is you are completely disregarding Palestinians, they haven't been left to live in peace, Israel have never left them to live in peace. So long as this isn't acknowledged peace is a long way away.

No. I have been truly shocked by some of the posts I've read on Mumsnet since 7th October. They have only served to strengthen my ongoing viewpoint.

.

Not at all.
You're either pro-israeli or pro-palestinian ( labeled anti-semetic & pro-hamas) on here. In fact I'm shocked at the number of apparently so called 'professional' long standing posters on her who are happy to espouse their support for attacking Palestine. I'm absolutely perturbed at the lack of balance & rational argument by these particular members. I've grown up in a Jewish area with Jewish friends & parents who were real admirers of the way that Jewish families stuck together ( we're Catholics). I'm trying not to tar all Jews with the same brush. But I can't align the total lack of conscience by the Israeli government with the Jewish undividuals I know.

Thank you. @OuiOuiKitty it reinforces my idea of second class citizens. Everything was fine before 7-10 because Israel citizens weren’t the ones being arrested , tortured , kicked out of their houses.

@InvisibleDuck you have described exactly how I feel.

No. Israel has to protect itself from a terrorist organisation that wants to DESTROY it and its people. What's worse that this is that that terrorist organisation is just interwoven with ordinary poor people.

I'm not sure why you and I've seen other posters say this - you cannot rock up to an Arab country just because you are Arab. Palestinians ONLY have Palestine. There are a small percentage who have dual nationality, but the ones who were forced to leave are in exile, they have no right to return. This affects 12 million Palestinians around the world.
My mind has been changed Re a two state solution. Due to this conflict I've heard a lot of what the Israeli politicians and government have had to say and I've realized that they strategically placed settlements to PREVENT a two state solution. It should be one state, equality and fairness for all.
All minority groups should have the right to live in peace. You don't achieve that though by stealing the land of others, oppressing them and then crying crocodile tears that you are the victim. Right to return merely because you have Jewish ancestry two generations ago needs to end. We've seen the harm that settlers do. There isn't enough room for newcomers. The OPT will just get smaller and smaller until all the Palestinians are forced into exile. I'm enraged that someone can come from another country and be paid to move to Israel and then claim they have more right to it than the Palestinians. And I don't believe the narrative that Jewish people will all die out if they don't have Israel.

I was horrified at the 7th October events, as were all my my family and friends. I have both Jewish and Palestinian friends but knew little of their history. I’ve read quite a lot in recent weeks and the behaviour of the IDF and settlers is horrific, I can’t believe anyone internationally could support them. It’s not just Hamas who are terrorists.

How patronising. Jews were persecuted in Catholic countries for centuries. If we had the means to defend ourselves then as we do now, you wouldn’t like us either. We’re not seeking your moral approval. Those who are unmoved by the death, murder, rape, and torture of Jewish men, women, and children are certainly not people we look up to as our moral betters.

I'm not sure why you and I've seen other posters say this - you cannot rock up to an Arab country just because you are Arab

Yeah it’s not like the European Union. You don’t get automatic citizenship.

What about the death, murder, rape & torture of the Palestinians since the 7th & before?
Or what about the persecution of the Palestinians over the last 75 years
Or perhaps being Jewish does your persecution trump all other persecutions?
Two wrongs do not make a right.
Incidentally Catholics were also persecuted in times gone by. Holding a grudge for generations leads to absolute strife & serves no good for anyone.

Anyone want to take a stab at defending the IDF for running over Palestinians sleeping outside of a hospital with a bulldozer?

I can't.
It sickens me to the core, but doesn't surprise me at all. Anyone following Dr Hassan on Instagram will be sadly familiar to this absolute cruelty.

What I have read on here hasn't changed my views but it has opened my eyes to how much misinformation and propaganda is spread on social media. I though Brexit was bad enough, but this is on another level.

I am a non-Jewish Zionist, old enough to remember the PLO hijackers and suicide bombers. Israel has spent its entire lifetime under constant fire in one form or another. Unfortunately currently I think any ideas of a two-state solution are fairyland.

To those that have compared this to the Irish situation, I can't agree. There was a huge local opposition to the IRA, they didn't rely wholly on the occupying British Army to fight the terrorists.

In Palestine, there doesn't appear to be any active or meaningful opposition to Hamas. To my limited knowledge, in every other country that has been occupied by a terrorist group, there has been a very active opposition from within (or at the very least from those exiled but living abroad). Why are there no dissenting voices in Palestine or amongst Palestinians abroad calling for the removal of Hamas? If Palestine wants peace, it needs leaders and a resistance movement to fight Hamas from within. The Palestinians themselves should be trying to overthrow Hamas and working with the Israelis, not against them. Why weren't the Palestinians asking the International community to help them fight the terrorists within? I can only assume it is because they hate Israel more than they hate Hamas so are passive accomplices.

Sorry Dr Ghassan.
Plastic surgeon who worked in Gaza for doctors without borders. Recently returned.

Good post. Don't choose a firm side. No-one has to. Surely there are rights and wrongs on both sides. The best analysis will be on a Saturday morning on Radio 4 about 30 years from now.

I have had my eyes opened to the victim-oppressor narrative that gets applied in so many areas of leftist politics, and how simplistically it gets applied (usually based on perceptions of ethnicity). So the Israelis are portrayed as white colonialists (ignoring the fact that most of them are middle-Eastern) and the Palestinians are powerless victims (ignoring the fact that they chose Hamas, mostly still support them and no credible opposition to Hamas has arisen). Imo it’s just re-branded reverse racism, removing all agency from the Palestinians. It reflects a collapse of faith in western values, particularly morality. There’s no morality anymore, only hierarchies of oppression. If you are at the bottom of the hierarchy anything you do can be justified by your oppression.