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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

661 replies

mollyfolk · 15/12/2023 23:33

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

OP posts:
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16
floodlightonwhatisright · 18/12/2023 13:40

LolaSmiles · 18/12/2023 13:31

On the central issue I haven't changed my mind.

I still think that innocent civilians, especially women and children, are yet again being harmed by men on ego trips and their love of war and fighting and need to make a name for themselves.

I still think that the presentation of the current war as something that started with the horrific Hamas attack a few months ago is a deliberately disingenuous attempt to ignore the endless push to grab land and minimise settled violence.

I'm incredibly troubled that any concerns for Palestinian people and expressions of support for a ceasefire are branded as being pro Hamas.

I'm also troubled that from what I've seen on here there's some posters who will meet any criticism of the IDF with "but what about Hamas" as if they can't comprehend that for people who don't have an ideological loyalty to a "side" are capable of viewing atrocious acts of violence against civilians to be atrocious regardless of the side.

I still have deep concerns that some people who are very pro-IDF try to shut down discussions by shouting anti-Semitism and drawing criteria of anti-Semitism that is designed to stifle discussion.

I still think that the actions of the group above is likely to fuel actual antisemitism (by the sort of groups who will try to push the antisemitic can't say anything about the Jews, Jews control the world narrative) and I'm still troubled by the almost inevitable rise in islamophobia and antisemitism that's going to ripple out.

Edit to add: It's been interesting to read different perspectives on here, but for a while I stepped out the topic because it felt like most discussions turned into whataboutery and people defending their "side".

Edited

What an extraordinary assertion that calling out anti-Semitism and reporting it will lead to more of it.

stormy4319trevor · 18/12/2023 13:41

I am not sure about the term 'islamophobic' and wonder how Muslims feel about it. It suggests a phobia or fear of Muslims, but what I see expressed is more like hatred. I'm more comfortable with anti-Muslim, but maybe I am wrong? Also, prejudice towards Muslims is not really the driving factor in discrimination against Palestinians. we can see that Christians are suffering and being killed in Gaza and the West Bank too. Their oppression is more to do with them being Palestinian than their religion, it seems.

LolaSmiles · 18/12/2023 13:45

Could you say a bit more about this to expand on what you mean?
There have been threads where there's antisemitic comments, which can and should rightfully be challenged and deleted.

There's also been threads, particularly earlier on in the conflict, where people are discussing their opinion on the actions of the IDF, Israel as a state and the conflict in general where people have been quick to try and close down the discussion by claiming the discussion is antisemitic.

My concern is that when there are deeply unpleasant groups who fuel highly hateful ideas about Jewish people (and we've all seen them with their conspiracies about Jewish people ruling the world, nobody is allowed to criticise them and so on), that when in defence of Israel and the IDF some people try to shut down the debate they're providing ammunition to people with hateful agendas.

It reminds me of some of the recent discussions about immigration, where certain quarters of the left would shout "racist" or "bigot" when people discussed immigration and had different points of view. I think the left shot itself in the foot there because they handed the right wing and genuinely racist groups ammunition to say "look at who you can't criticise, they're the ones who are in power, you can't even say anything about immigration without being called racist". It played out again with Brexit, lots of throwing around"bigot", "racist" and what happened? The conservatives swung to the right, the overton window on immigration has moved, Nigel Farage still has a platform, and people who may previously been open to a moderate view (albeit one I disagree with) have been easily swung and become more extreme in their views.

My concern is something similar could happen with the way some people discuss this conflict and I don't think it's positive for society.

Peskysquirrel · 18/12/2023 13:48

Okay, thanks for explaining.

feralunderclass · 18/12/2023 13:52

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floodlightonwhatisright · 18/12/2023 13:54

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She didn't mean that at all.

Thereissomelight · 18/12/2023 13:59

@feralunderclass
Agree

Livinginanotherworld · 18/12/2023 14:06

stomachameleon · 17/12/2023 22:47

@Livinginanotherworld once again that makes no sense.
What are you talking about?

25miles said she was getting embarrassed, I said “I was sorry she was embarrassed”.

floodlightonwhatisright · 18/12/2023 14:07

floodlightonwhatisright · 18/12/2023 13:54

She didn't mean that at all.

Show quote history

You found it boring that anti-Semitism has been called out?
Trouble is, many posters do not seem to be aware of what anti-Semitism is.
You may not know either.

feralunderclass · 18/12/2023 14:18

floodlightonwhatisright · 18/12/2023 14:07

You found it boring that anti-Semitism has been called out?
Trouble is, many posters do not seem to be aware of what anti-Semitism is.
You may not know either.

Show quote history

No, it's boring when posters are shouting "antisemitism!" at anyone and everyone for any criticism of the government and/or showing sympathy to the Palestinian plight.
There is no universally decided definition of antisemitism, but IMO criticising a government isn't it. I have reported posts that I felt were antisemitic, and if I'd lived close to London I definitely would have attended the march against AS. I don't feel I'm antisemitic at all, but I was told my posts were "dripping with antisemitism" in the early days. By a poster who said Palestinian babies were Hamas 🤔

25milesfromhome · 18/12/2023 14:19

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Totallymessed · 18/12/2023 14:25

LolaSmiles · 18/12/2023 13:45

Could you say a bit more about this to expand on what you mean?
There have been threads where there's antisemitic comments, which can and should rightfully be challenged and deleted.

There's also been threads, particularly earlier on in the conflict, where people are discussing their opinion on the actions of the IDF, Israel as a state and the conflict in general where people have been quick to try and close down the discussion by claiming the discussion is antisemitic.

My concern is that when there are deeply unpleasant groups who fuel highly hateful ideas about Jewish people (and we've all seen them with their conspiracies about Jewish people ruling the world, nobody is allowed to criticise them and so on), that when in defence of Israel and the IDF some people try to shut down the debate they're providing ammunition to people with hateful agendas.

It reminds me of some of the recent discussions about immigration, where certain quarters of the left would shout "racist" or "bigot" when people discussed immigration and had different points of view. I think the left shot itself in the foot there because they handed the right wing and genuinely racist groups ammunition to say "look at who you can't criticise, they're the ones who are in power, you can't even say anything about immigration without being called racist". It played out again with Brexit, lots of throwing around"bigot", "racist" and what happened? The conservatives swung to the right, the overton window on immigration has moved, Nigel Farage still has a platform, and people who may previously been open to a moderate view (albeit one I disagree with) have been easily swung and become more extreme in their views.

My concern is something similar could happen with the way some people discuss this conflict and I don't think it's positive for society.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the problem is that some of the anti-Semitic posts are not being deleted. I'm not talking about (heated) discussion or criticisms of Israel, I'm talking about posts that have- IMO- crossed the line into hate speech. Mumsnet don't seem to be dealing with this, so I feel I have no choice but to take my concerns elsewhere.

stomachameleon · 18/12/2023 14:30

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stomachameleon · 18/12/2023 14:32

Remember along with the CST there is also prevent. I have been keeping a file of the worst 'pro terrorism' posts. Like it or not Hamas are a terrorist organisation.

Livinginanotherworld · 18/12/2023 14:33

LolaSmiles · 18/12/2023 13:31

On the central issue I haven't changed my mind.

I still think that innocent civilians, especially women and children, are yet again being harmed by men on ego trips and their love of war and fighting and need to make a name for themselves.

I still think that the presentation of the current war as something that started with the horrific Hamas attack a few months ago is a deliberately disingenuous attempt to ignore the endless push to grab land and minimise settled violence.

I'm incredibly troubled that any concerns for Palestinian people and expressions of support for a ceasefire are branded as being pro Hamas.

I'm also troubled that from what I've seen on here there's some posters who will meet any criticism of the IDF with "but what about Hamas" as if they can't comprehend that for people who don't have an ideological loyalty to a "side" are capable of viewing atrocious acts of violence against civilians to be atrocious regardless of the side.

I still have deep concerns that some people who are very pro-IDF try to shut down discussions by shouting anti-Semitism and drawing criteria of anti-Semitism that is designed to stifle discussion.

I still think that the actions of the group above is likely to fuel actual antisemitism (by the sort of groups who will try to push the antisemitic can't say anything about the Jews, Jews control the world narrative) and I'm still troubled by the almost inevitable rise in islamophobia and antisemitism that's going to ripple out.

Edit to add: It's been interesting to read different perspectives on here, but for a while I stepped out the topic because it felt like most discussions turned into whataboutery and people defending their "side".

Edited

Very good post.

As I see it, anyone who criticises the Israeli government, the IDF, the people who fully support the ongoing bombardment of Gaza are all now constantly being called out as anti-Semitic. Anyone against them will have they mouths sewn up soon. Now we have the secret speech police on here reporting posts to some organisation.

Why are others not allowed the freedom of speech to support the oppressed minorities in Palestine.

It’s not just Jewish people who are feeling threatened in the western world, Islamophobia has increased exactly the same and they feel threatened too.

Thereissomelight · 18/12/2023 14:36

I haven’t seen any pro terrorist posts here.
Lots of anti terrorist ones.

Livinginanotherworld · 18/12/2023 14:44

stomachameleon · 18/12/2023 14:32

Remember along with the CST there is also prevent. I have been keeping a file of the worst 'pro terrorism' posts. Like it or not Hamas are a terrorist organisation.

Wow, keeping a file ! Are you the secret police ? Are you trying to scare us into not speaking out ?

LolaSmiles · 18/12/2023 14:49

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the problem is that some of the anti-Semitic posts are not being deleted. I'm not talking about (heated) discussion or criticisms of Israel, I'm talking about posts that have- IMO- crossed the line into hate speech. Mumsnet don't seem to be dealing with this, so I feel I have no choice but to take my concerns elsewhere
I would agree with you on that, based on the premise that you're not talking about criticism of Israel/IDF. Some things have stood that probably shouldn't have. On other platforms I've also seen a lot of content on pro Palestinian posts that are hateful and I'm torn between being surprised or ashamed to see that it's been allowed to stand.

Equally, particularly early on in this board's creation there was a problem where some posters, a loud minority, were very keen to try to shut down discussion that wasn't hate speech.

On the whole I tend to start from the position where I assume posters are posting in good faith, even if they have views I disagree with. One thing I've observed on this board is that where posters have deeply held ideological allegiances to one side or the other, it's hard to see that the discussion is in good faith. It's more about shutting people with different views up.

Okay, thanks for explaining.
I'm happy to explain. I'm concerned about a huge lurch to the right in British politics that is toxic, and not just for Jewish people, but people from a range of ethnic groups, range of religions, a range of social groups and those people with disabilities. The Overton window is being deliberately shifted by people with a vested interest in perpetuating division and hate within society.

Jarnsaxa · 18/12/2023 14:51

Yeah. Prevent are going to send the police to raid our houses and cart us all off to Guantanamo! Or maybe Butlins, dunno. For saying genocide is wrong and babies can't be terrorists!
That'll help improve Israel's image...

backtowinter · 18/12/2023 14:54

Thereissomelight · 18/12/2023 14:36

I haven’t seen any pro terrorist posts here.
Lots of anti terrorist ones.

You don't think referring to Hamas as "bad people" and not terrorists fits that bill?

25milesfromhome · 18/12/2023 14:59

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True.

FOJN · 18/12/2023 15:00

backtowinter · 18/12/2023 14:54

You don't think referring to Hamas as "bad people" and not terrorists fits that bill?

Show quote history

Calling Hamas "bad people" is clearly not signalling support or approval so now you are taking issue with the words people use to express their disapproval.

Please stop, this is getting ridiculous.

This is a predominantly female space and whilst some of us are seriously concerned about the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF I doubt anyone posting here thinks that Hamas would treat us any better.

WibbleWobbleFlop · 18/12/2023 15:01

Nobody is taking issue with Netanyahu and the IDF being criticized. Nobody is saying that criticizing Netanyahu and the IDF is anti-Semitic. Those are both very valid things to discuss. Frankly, they both deserve the vitriol being flung at them.

The anti-Semitism is coming from those who equate the Israeli population with their political leaders. It is anti-Semitic because like it or not, Israel is the only Jewish state in the world. Israel is the Jewish homeland. This doesn't mean that every Jewish person is Israeli or that every Jewish person supports the Israeli government.

Saying that Israel want Palestinians wiped off the map is anti-Semitic because it is conflating the people of Israel with its leaders. Similarly, if someone posted that Palestine wants Israelis wiped off the map, that would be anti-Palestinian rhetoric as Palestine is not Hamas (who are the political leaders in Gaza and should be held to the same standard as any other political leader).

I will again link the definition of anti-Semitism as agreed by the European Commission.

https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/combatting-discrimination/racism-and-xenophobia/combating-antisemitism/definition-antisemitism_en

European Commission

Definition of antisemitism

Antisemitism has mutated over time and appears today in many different forms and among all parts of society.

https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/combatting-discrimination/racism-and-xenophobia/combating-antisemitism/definition-antisemitism_en

Peskysquirrel · 18/12/2023 15:06

Thanks for posting that link @WibbleWobbleFlop

Desertrose2023 · 18/12/2023 15:06

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