Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

So only Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, Paraguay, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, the United States and the European Union designate Hamas as a terrorist organization.

Mostly western countries. The rest of the world don’t. Make of that what you will.

For the thought police on here, please don’t put this in my file, I copied it from wiki. These are not my words, I do not speak. 🙄

As I see it, anyone who criticises the Israeli government, the IDF, the people who fully support the ongoing bombardment of Gaza are all now constantly being called out as anti-Semitic. Anyone against them will have they mouths sewn up soon.

This is nonsense. Sure, there's may be a couple of particularly extreme and hawkish pro-Israeli posters who have done this, but by saying "anyone" who criticises the Govt, IDF, etc is tarred as an antisemite is absolute horseshit and manipulative. I personally have not seen anyone who criticised the Israeli Govt being labelled an antisemite, in response. It's just a repeated-slogan now, words that keep being put in our mouths for us. Because you know fine well the more you say that the more it sticks, and before you know we're being accused of "smearing" and actually it's us ourselves that's causing the antisemitism, which I still can't believe I've read on this thread. Just gross.

People generally aren't being called antisemites for standalone posts (although obviously there have been blatant hate-speech posts and I've called one out myself on this thread). But there's an evident pattern of extreme hostility, mocking and microaggressions from many posters towards Jews on MN, which is not just directed to the outspoken pro-Israeli posters, but also those of us who have a more moderate and balanced approach.

And yes, I've seen pro-terrorist posts, plenty of them, including the one I called-out upthread which was linked to the IRA and ANC, and is now deleted.

@WibbleWobbleFlop thank you for that clear explanation
I saw posts that said 'palestinians hate Jewish people' and Palestinians want to exile all Jewish people from their land'
Now I wasn't happy to see that but I wouldn't know what to call it. So would it be considered anti-Palestinian rhetoric?

I have had a look and I can't find a clear definition for it. If anyone else does know then I would be very grateful if you could share it on here. Thank you

So only Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, Paraguay, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, the United States and the European Union designate Hamas as a terrorist organization.
Mostly western countries. The rest of the world don’t. Make of that what you will.

What I make of it is to look critically at why some countries do not designate Hamas as a terrorist organisation and their rationale for that. So a country's wish to remain neutral, for example.

Also, several countries are considering changing their stance on "no" after Oct 7th.

It might be nonsense to you, but in my opinion it is not. Pro-Palestinian posters including myself are constantly being called out on here by certain posters for expressing views about the ongoing bombardment in Gaza and the horrific violence in the occupied areas. We are constantly called anti-Semitic and also more subtly by implication. It is harassment and bullying and now what’s even more sinister, we are being reported to organisations and having files kept on us by certain posters.

Sadly yes, certain posters definitely have form for this harassment and bullying style.

@stormy4319trevor

Also, prejudice towards Muslims is not really the driving factor in discrimination against Palestinians. we can see that Christians are suffering and being killed in Gaza and the West Bank too. Their oppression is more to do with them being Palestinian than their religion, it seems.

According to Wikipedia, the vast majority of the population of Palestine is 93% Muslim and 6% Christian. Israel is 73.6% Jewish, 18.1% Muslim, 1.9% Christian and 1.6% Druze.

Bearing the above figures in mind, when someone criticises Israel, they're anti semitic when they're not even mentioning or meaning Jewish people.
So why is it the same logic isn't applied and anyone supporting the genocide and mass killings of the Palestinian people not Islamaphobic? Because if someone wants Israel erased, then you're antisemitic but you're not Islamaphobic by wanting Palestine erased.

Good post.

I have found that whatever I say, and however balanced I try and make it, I sense microaggressions and mocking from certain posters automatically.
And heaven forbid you link to a Daily Mail article.

The anti-Semitism is coming from those who equate the Israeli population with their political leaders. It is anti-Semitic because like it or not, Israel is the only Jewish state in the world. Israel is the Jewish homeland. This doesn't mean that every Jewish person is Israeli or that every Jewish person supports the Israeli government.

Saying that Israel want Palestinians wiped off the map is anti-Semitic because it is conflating the people of Israel with its leaders. Similarly, if someone posted that Palestine wants Israelis wiped off the map, that would be anti-Palestinian rhetoric as Palestine is not Hamas (who are the political leaders in Gaza and should be held to the same standard as any other political leader).

I think this relies on people making assumptions about what someone means here and at times it stops the discussion being in good faith in my opinion. I also agree with you that the average Israeli citizen should not be blamed or held accountable for the actions of their government though.

In the context of discussing warfare, I'd no more consider someone discussing what Israel (as a political entity and government making a range of decisions about war and peace) is doing or trying to achieve a comment on what your average Israeli citizen believes or wants than I would consider someone discussing what 'Russia' has done in a discussion on the War in Ukraine is a comment that means "your average Russian citizen wants..."

In the spirit of discussion it is usually quite evident that someone saying "Russia is trying to..." or "Israel is trying to.." is referring to the country and the leaders, not average people so twisting someone saying "Russia is..." into claims of "you're saying the russian people are...' would be disingenuous to me.

Just like if someone commented about the UK creating a hostile environment to immigration on a thread about immigration policy changes, it would be unreasonable to accuse the poster of saying all British citizens are racist and hostile to immigrants. Referring to the actions of a country on the global stage by the name of the country is not unique to this conflict.

Exactly as you said @LolaSmiles . I try to add "government" when referring to Israel (Israeli government) for avoidance of doubt, but when typing quickly it is easy to forget to do this.

And it is standard in newspapers etc to refer to a country at war by country name only. Of course the newspapers are referring to the government, armed forces, and not to the citizens of a nation. Same as the posters using the word "Israel" when referring to the conflict.

@flowerssss I am not sure, really. I see what you are saying, but I suppose Palestinians have not called themselves a Muslim state, even though they make up the majority? The Palestinian identity is shared with non-Muslims and seems to be rooted in a shared culture and history. Israel identifies as a Jewish state, the only one in the world, and the national identity is built on that. I'm still wondering if the term 'islamophobic' is an accurate descriptor of the prejudice faced by Muslims, if anyone cares to comment.

So would it be evident to you if somebody was to say Gaza or Palestine is trying to wipe Israel out (as Hamas has stated they wanted to do ) that they meant the government Hamas ? As I guarantee that MN would rightfully delete my post.

I don't think there is an official term for it. I am going with "anti-Palestinian rhetoric" because technically it Palestinians are Semites, but aren't the intended group in reference to anti-Semitism. And while mostly Muslim, Palestinians are a multitude of religions, so it's not a hatred or fear of Islam per-se. It's also not racism because Israelis and Palestinians are often a similar skin tone as they originate from the same part of the world.

I am happy to be corrected or educated further on the matter though!

Anti-muslim would be a more accurate word as the equivalent to anti-semitism. Phobia implies mental illness etc although it is commonly used.I believe in religious freedom for all.

I just watched a good Al J programme about Pakistan expelling 1.7m Afghans. The expulsion is of those who entered illegally, undocumented ones and is for various reasons including the murders by the fundamentalist Islamic Pakistini Taliban which the Afghan Taliban apparently shelters, Pakistan thinks. About 400k have returned so far many living in tents.

Exactly as you said @LolaSmiles . I try to add "government" when referring to Israel (Israeli government) for avoidance of doubt, but when typing quickly it is easy to forget to do this.

And it is standard in newspapers etc to refer to a country at war by country name only. Of course the newspapers are referring to the government, armed forces, and not to the citizens of a nation.Same as the posters using the word "Israel" when referring to the conflict.

It's the same on a lot of topics. Metonymy is used a lot when writing about current affairs.
This example on climate change is another example.
The UK rushed out its climate plan just days before Cop26 – and it shows.
As a British citizen I certainly had nothing to do with a rushed plan on climate change, but it's common to discuss the actions of the government by the country name. Is the writer making a statement about British citizens, I don't think so.
Or would we argue this headline
US leant on Britain to jail detainees freed from Guantánamo Bay is accusing US citizens of being complicit in torture? I also don't think so, but if using country names is a synonym for "your average citizen of that country" that's how we should interpret it.

If it's unacceptable to use country names in this way then there's a lot of medica coverage across a range of topics that needs rewriting.

Thanks @Xenia My opinion is that if people were phobic they would be afraid of people who are Muslim. I don't see much hostility towards Muslims being expressed as fear, it's more like anger. I feel the term diminishes the aggression experienced by Muslims. But I may be wrong and there are good reasons for the use of the term. On the Afghans, their suffering has been terrible.

@LolaSmiles Thank you - I agree and thanks for teaching me a new word! Metonymy - it's a good one.

I think the difference here is that Israel is the only country in the world where Judaism is in the majority. It is officially a Jewish State. Palestinians are mostly Muslim, but there are dozens of other countries whose people practice Islam in a majority. The Israel/Palestine conflict is centered on these two factions, and there is no intention (implied or overt) to eliminate Muslims.

The fact that Israel is unique in it's religious identity makes the case for inferred religious hate much more complex.

@stormy4319trevor yes I see your point about what it's called. "Phobia" means you're afraid of something.

I've taken this from Wikipedia

Islamophobia is the fear of, hatred of, or prejudice against the religion of Islam or Muslims in general,[1][2][3] especially when seen as a geopolitical force or a source of terrorism.[4][5][6]
The scope and precise definition of the term Islamophobia, is the subject of debate. Some scholars consider it to be a form of xenophobia or racism, some consider Islamophobia and racism to be closely related or partially overlapping phenomena, while others dispute any relationship; primarily on the grounds that religion is not a race.

There are a number of other possible terms which are also used in order to refer to negative feelings and attitudes towards Islam and Muslims, such as anti-Muslimism, intolerance against Muslims, anti-Muslim prejudice, anti-Muslim bigotry, hatred of Muslims, anti-Islamism, Muslimophobia, demonisation of Islam, or demonisation of Muslims. In German, Islamophobie (fear) and Islamfeindlichkeit (hostility) are used. The Scandinavian term Muslimhat literally means "hatred of Muslims".[10]

Thanks @flowerssss Had a look at wiki, and Isee it's complex and even controversial as a term. This bit caught my eye,

At a 2009 symposium on "Islamophobia and Religious Discrimination", Robin Richardson, a former director of the Runnymede Trust[37][failed verification] and the editor of Islamophobia: a challenge for us all,[38] said that "the disadvantages of the term Islamophobia are significant" on seven different grounds, including that it implies it is merely a "severe mental illness" affecting "only a tiny minority of people"; that use of the term makes those to whom it is applied "defensive and defiant" and absolves the user of "the responsibility of trying to understand them" or trying to change their views; that it implies that hostility to Muslims is divorced from factors such as skin color, immigrant status, fear of fundamentalism, or political or economic conflicts; that it conflates prejudice against Muslims in one's own country with dislike of Muslims in countries with which the West is in conflict; that it fails to distinguish between people who are against all religion from people who dislike Islam specifically; and that the actual issue being described is hostility to Muslims, "an ethno-religious identity within European countries", rather than hostility to Islam.

But, I am not Muslim, so whether the term is useful and accurate is not up to me.

Are you really going to try and argue Israel is not an occupier under international law?
The opinion of a random mumsnetter counts for more than international law 😉

Not to me because today’s Palestinians did not functionally elect Hamas.