Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

I don’t believe asking someone to educate themselves is impolite, particularly when they are expressing ill informed opinions. even the US accepts Israel is an occupying power.

and the security council resolutions date back decades. I would link them here but tbh I can’t be bothered wasting more energy on this conversation.

Obviously, the Holy Trinity.

From now on, I will be reporting every single anti-Semitic post on these boards to the CST.

I choose, like you do, to form opinions based upon what we consider to be reputable sources.

Unlike you, I do not insult others when I disagree with said opinions like "ill informed".

I think your posts come across as rude, inflammatory and goady.

*@Desertrose2023

floodlightonwhatisright
No I think you are criticising the Jewish state by saying Israel - not its government or its military. Therefore, I think your post is anti-Semitic.

So applying your twisted logic any criticism of Israel as a country is automatically antisemitic because Israel has chosen to define itself as a Jewish state. Therefore Israel is immune to criticism. How convenient!*

I interpreted it the same. Very convenient.

Anyone making a criticism of how the IDF and the Israeli government are treating the Palestinians are labelled anti semitic.

But why is the same not applied to what Israel are doing?

I would argue bombing places of worship, forcing Palestinian detainees to drink alcohol, not saying anything against these atrocities is Islamophobic.

I think the point is that yes Israel is recognised as a Jewish State but a State nonetheless so like every other State in the world it is reasonable to expect criticism from time to time, you cannot call criticism of the Israeli government and their actions antisemitic. That is what the poster is calling a twisted logic, unacceptable and convenient

Since the Gazans or Palestinians elected Hamas, would it be twisted logic not to be able to say things like the Palestinians committed a terrorist atrocity? ( I am not saying this.)

Ow would you class this as Islamophobic?

I’m sorry if I came across as rude or flippant but I cannot have a meaningful discussion with someone that doesn’t even accept basic and established facts under international law. This isn’t a matter of opinion based on reputable sources.

your assertion that Israel is not an occupying power is highly offensive, particularly to those I know personally who are living in the occupied territories and who have to endure the indignities of life under military occupation on a daily basis.

Yes. There posts and company has now made it on to Israeli TV so the bad publicity worked. Its in Hebrew so no idea what the reporter is saying but they have posted it on their page with the caption 'Happy we are able to touch the dream of so many people'
Disgusting

Why are you comparing the Israeli government to Hamas? One is a democratically elected government the other is recognised internationally as a terrorist organisation which has not held an election in Palestine since 2006. The IDF are a centrally controlled military force, Hamas is not centrally controlled and therefore they carry out horrendous atrocities without any accountability whatsoever. I know that neighbouring an unpredictable, volatile and uncontrollable terrorists is horrendous for Israel but that does not mean they can't be criticised either for the extent of their retaliation

You come across as rude, goady and inflammatory and your comment "I cannot have a meaningful discussion with someone that doesn’t even accept basic and established facts under international law frankly is further evidence of how you are perceived as you will not permit a poster to disagree with you. Still, your posts are out there for all to see - as are mine.

Yeah, I really don't understand this. Palestinians don't even have a country never mind a democratically elected government and a military. Comparing Israel with the territories it is occupying is comparing apples and oranges, they aren't even close to the same thing. Maybe floodlight can explain what she thinks the similarities between the IDF and a terrorist organisation are?

I think many of the posts on the hundreds of threads are similar and screeching and will never change opinions. Some are troll like some goad, many use inflammatory language and some aren't worth reading. It turns people off the subject.

I have some well thought out and written posts that do stand out though.

The jury is still out whether Israel is an occupying state - it's not yet a fact.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/

I have some well thought out and written posts that do stand out though.

@Christmascountdownpanic
I assume you meant you have read some well thought out posts and you're not just blowing your own trumpet 😀

Yes, I have just tried to amend but too late... read some 🙄🤣

Thanks for the laugh 😂💐😊

Yes, I'm also going to start taking screenshots of the more blatantly anti-semitic posts and forwarding them to these people. Sadly, for whatever reason, the moderating on this topic is not working. Unfortunately, the lack of moderating has resulted in some posters getting increasingly offensive- I've been reporting posts for weeks now, often nothing happens so I feel I have no choice but to report elsewhere.

But the Israeli citizens vote consistently for Netanyahu, the IDF is the state owned and operated armed force that most Israelis have been members of or will become members of. Yes it is Israel at fault. If they didn’t want this, they could rise up and stop it, March, strike, lobby their representatives, we don’t see that much of this do we. According to polls, most Israelis want to carry on and don’t want a ceasefire.

In Gaza there haven’t been elections for years, most of its citizens are under the voting age anyway so I don’t thinks it’s a fair appraisal to say the Gazans voted for Hamas.

I have personally just sent links containing some overt anti-Semitic posts to the CST whom will investigate.

I genuinely don't understand this? Of course a country should be conflated with its military actions, because it's acting according to the instructions of its government. Or did you mean Israelis shouldn't be conflated with the military action?

Well I hope you included the posts by Jewish posters, who labelled other Jews as "crackpots", "nutters" and "lunatics" simply because they didn't agree with them. And the worst, was the poster who said Jews in UK can be identified by their "Jewish hair colour". I honestly thought that was an antisemite trying to poke the bear, but apparently not.

I would simply class it as inaccurate, since the Gazans did not functionally vote for Hamas.
Israel did vote for their current government who control the IDF.

This constant relabelling of things to prevent people from being allowed to criticise them is wearing very thin. I think of Shakespeare’s line: “A rose by any other name”. Or in this case, “mass murderers by any other name”

On the central issue I haven't changed my mind.

I still think that innocent civilians, especially women and children, are yet again being harmed by men on ego trips and their love of war and fighting and need to make a name for themselves.

I still think that the presentation of the current war as something that started with the horrific Hamas attack a few months ago is a deliberately disingenuous attempt to ignore the endless push to grab land and minimise settled violence.

I'm incredibly troubled that any concerns for Palestinian people and expressions of support for a ceasefire are branded as being pro Hamas.

I'm also troubled that from what I've seen on here there's some posters who will meet any criticism of the IDF with "but what about Hamas" as if they can't comprehend that for people who don't have an ideological loyalty to a "side" are capable of viewing atrocious acts of violence against civilians to be atrocious regardless of the side.

I still have deep concerns that some people who are very pro-IDF try to shut down discussions by shouting anti-Semitism and drawing criteria of anti-Semitism that is designed to stifle discussion.

I still think that the actions of the group above is likely to fuel actual antisemitism (by the sort of groups who will try to push the antisemitic can't say anything about the Jews, Jews control the world narrative) and I'm still troubled by the almost inevitable rise in islamophobia and antisemitism that's going to ripple out.

Edit to add: It's been interesting to read different perspectives on here, but for a while I stepped out the topic because it felt like most discussions turned into whataboutery and people defending their "side".

I still think that the actions of the group above is likely to fuel actual antisemitism (by the sort of groups who will try to push the antisemitic can't say anything about the Jews, Jews control the world narrative) and I'm still troubled by the almost inevitable rise in islamophobia and antisemitism that's going to ripple out.

Could you say a bit more about this to expand on what you mean?

Edited to add: by "actions of the group above" do you mean the CST?